Open Site Blathering (formerly Advice from iridium ITT)

[Pendulum]

Well, the Pomeranian reference proves it's the real Gals.

[Col. Khaddafi]

It wasn't a matter of guts so much as you already know I am here and I had to get my fix.

I just hope the gigantic essays your guys rip out aren't expected. I suck at writing long stuff and have the patience of a Pomeranian.

Its OK really, enjoy your stay.

Do you want me to fix your username capitalization or is it on purpose? Do you need a custom? Just ask in case you need something.

[Blackhound]

So, whats up with the sally server ? or are you not allowed to say ?

[Galspanic]

Well, the Pomeranian reference proves it's the real Gals.

I am a pretty easy mark.


Just to speak a little to what nai said, I think the bans were "right" in the sense that we were enforcing the rules, but the last six months have given me a pretty clear sense that our rules are busts and don't do what they are supposed to do. We are working on it, but with 5 admins, an owner who has been busy, and a life offsite things are not moving as fast as I would like.

Unfortunately a lot of people (myself included), feel that unless changes happen on our end if we unban people we will just keep repeating this over and over again. Clearly that isn't a good solution for anyone. I've seen a lot of ideas from a lot of people very
high on my "pain in the fuckin anus" list, so I do feel there is hope, but we all have to get into fix-it mode.

I'm busy right now looking at a room full of women either in yoga pants or breast feeding so my attention is very Pomeranian.

Black hound - mtgs is broken for now and being fixed. Not sure really. Ask scumbag, my tech savvy ends at searching for cat videos.

Scumbag - that would be appreciated. My ipad autocorrects stupid stuff like that.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Fixed, if you have troubles logging just capitalize (I don't remember if the software makes the difference or not).

[Pendulum]

not for screennames, no, doesn't matter.

[Sene]

What's up, how come I am not able to thank Nai's post? Something wrong with the forum skin I'm using?

[Kaitscralt]

Try clicking to the right of Quote

[Nai]

@Nai: My apologies for intruding on your conversation, but I, as curious bystander, am very curious what changes to the Gutter's behavior you would like to see, specifically and, as you say, just personally.
Also, WB.

If you're asking what do I want to see as a precursor to the the banned members returning to 'Salvation? I'm going to put it bluntly: an attitude adjustment.

Yes. Mistakes were made. You guys are upset that they were banned from the website, and I'm very well aware of that. You believe that the bans were invalid and unjust. I'm aware of that too. I'm also aware that I'm not going to change your minds on that, so I'm not going to try.

You guys don't trust the staff. Fine. The staff doesn't really trust you
either, so we're on about even ground. I'd like to change that. It needs to be understood that the staff doesn't have the same goals and ideals as you guys hold, and that, at the end of the day, we're the ones running the site for better or worse. Should it be for worse, you can bet your ass we're going to get replaced. And I can't speak for my entire staff, but I know that I enjoy talking to people and, when they have ideas that make my work better, I take them and run with them. We've done it a lot over the past year. Things like suspension/ban appeals. The suspension evasion rule. Things like public moderation applications. Things like five admins instead of three. These are good suggestions. And I think most of them were suggested by people outside of staff.

It needs to be understood that we're not trying to hurt 'Salvation. We're trying to nurture it and make it grow. And, oddly enough, as many complaints about our way of doing things as we get, we still continue to grow. We still have more
users than we had yesterday, and have steadily gone up. We've made mistakes. And we need to fix them, and learn from them. And we're working on that.

It also needs to be understood that the team working today is not the team working six months ago. I see a lot of 'I dislike the staff because of something that happened six months ago or more'. Odds are? 50% of the people that made that decision are no longer on staff. Turnover has been high for the past six months for various reasons. Distrusting the staff as a whole is simply the way to upset yourself.

So I'd like us to work from positions of mutual understanding. You guys want the best for the site. I want what's best for the site. Let's work together. There are things you want that I can't give. That's a shame, but it's understandable. Now you have a site of your own, and you can have those things that I can't give you. So let's work from that basis: I'll give you what I can. What I can't can go here.

If you want to know the things
I can't give you?

Casual trolling, as has been shown in this thread by Kijin? Funny as hell. I do the same thing in League of Legends and I rib on my friends fairly consistently. But... Not good on 'Salvation.

Making fun of each other and ribbing. Great in small groups. But what's fun and amusing to you may not be to other people. The casual bashing you guys do in here, which is done in fun, looks like flaming to others. And we can't always know.

Things like that.

[Nai]

So, whats up with the sally server ? or are you not allowed to say ?

From what I understand, Curse is having some server issues right now. A few servers went down and our site was on one of them. A few other sites are down. They're getting people on it, from what we were told.

[Sene]

Try clicking to the right of Quote

---

[Kaitscralt]

There are things that you guys want that 'Salvation can't provide. The Gutter, plainly, is probably one of those things.

I don't think anyone here (who matters) cares about the MTGS Gutter any longer.

[Kaitscralt]

Try clicking to the right of Quote

---

What do you see to the right of peoples posts? That is where the Quote function is, and also the Thanks. And on some skins the Thanks is invisible, to the right of Quote.

[Sene]

I think it just got fixed so I have successfully thanked Nai's post.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Yeah its a known bug, the icons for the thanks mod tend to randomly disappear in the aeroblue and lucid lime skins so they have to be re-linked.

I tried to re-link the gifs, they will disappear down the line probably, until I can find where the bug is. Kaitscralt advice is the best. Jus because the icon disappears, the butting is still there. just click where the icon should have been.

[Pendulum]

Turns out you were right, Scumbag. We just needed a few rainbows.

[Galspanic]

There are things that you guys want that 'Salvation can't provide. The Gutter, plainly, is probably one of those things.

I don't think anyone here (who matters) cares about the MTGS Gutter any longer.

I mentioned this to Azrael, but I think the Gutter is a trap at this point. Unless it's moderated like every other forum I just see it keeping a rift open that doesn't help anyone. And if you haven't seen it lately, it's real sad. The 7-10 posts per week are inane, un-entertaining, and devoid of quality. I just want to put it out of its misery ...
But that also opens up the unban discussion a lot for me. It's not a bargaining chip or anything, but if your jackassery stays away from a their work it looks like it could help. If I can go to th staff and say "guys, they will be unbanned they will be under the umbrella of mtgs rules and will be treated the same as everyone else" ...maybe?

[Kaitscralt]

No offense Galspanic but it looks like an iPhone or something really damaged that post, I am having trouble figuring out what you are trying to say.

[Pendulum]

No offense Galspanic but it looks like an iPhone or something really damaged that post, I am having trouble figuring out what you are trying to say.

He's saying the Gutter is a McGuffin but most of the staff see it more like Chekov's Gun.

[Nai]

No offense Galspanic but it looks like an iPhone or something really damaged that post, I am having trouble figuring out what you are trying to say.

He's saying the Gutter is a McGuffin but most of the staff see it more like Chekov's Gun.

I don't think McGuffin is the trope you're looking for.

Basically, he's saying that the Gutter is just bad at this point. The actual subforum. It's dead and lifeless as is. And the staff is worried that, should the members of the Gutter return and the Gutter still exists, problems will reoccur.

[Kaitscralt]

I'm not sure I follow that line of thinking. It's not as if the administration doesn't have access to the Gutter. Also the Zombie Gutter sucks, nobody wants to post there. It's not on the list reasons I want access to my Kaitscralt account.

[Nai]

I'm not sure I follow that line of thinking. It's not as if the administration doesn't have access to the Gutter. Also the Zombie Gutter sucks, nobody wants to post there. It's not on the list reasons I want access to my Kaitscralt account.

From how its been explained to me, it's basically a banner. A psychological 'We have the hill, let's hold it' thing, i guess?

[Blackhound]

Sene here. Apparently my account is deleted or something. Hopefully we'll be able to figure out what happened, and it'll be fixed.

>_<

[Blackhound]

lol Sene.

[Blackhound]

Sene
Guest


Posts: n/a


hahahahaha

[Pendulum]

I'm not sure I follow that line of thinking. It's not as if the administration doesn't have access to the Gutter. Also the Zombie Gutter sucks, nobody wants to post there. It's not on the list reasons I want access to my Kaitscralt account.

From how its been explained to me, it's basically a banner. A psychological 'We have the hill, let's hold it' thing, i guess?

Would you like me to explain what's wrong with this or should I just shut the fuck up?

Edit- @Blackhound: Not kewl, dude. Glitches like that aren't a laughing matter.

[Nai]

I'm not sure I follow that line of thinking. It's not as if the administration doesn't have access to the Gutter. Also the Zombie Gutter sucks, nobody wants to post there. It's not on the list reasons I want access to my Kaitscralt account.

From how its been explained to me, it's basically a banner. A psychological 'We have the hill, let's hold it' thing, i guess?

Would you like me to
explain what's wrong with this or should I just shut the fuck up?

Edit- @Blackhound: Not kewl, dude. Glitches like that aren't a laughing matter.

I don't necessarily agree with it. But a lot of the problems here has been specifically about that subforum, less about the actual people in it. The entire concept, the posts therein, so on and so forth. So it's natural to think 'well, if the subforum is gone..."

[Pendulum]

I'm not sure I follow that line of thinking. It's not as if the administration doesn't have access to the Gutter. Also the Zombie Gutter sucks, nobody wants to post there. It's not on the list reasons I want access to my Kaitscralt account.

From
how its been explained to me, it's basically a banner. A psychological 'We have the hill, let's hold it' thing, i guess?

Would you like me to explain what's wrong with this or should I just shut the fuck up?

Edit- @Blackhound: Not kewl, dude. Glitches like that aren't a laughing matter.

I don't necessarily agree with it. But a lot of the problems here has been specifically about that subforum, less about the actual people in it. The entire concept, the posts therein, so on and so forth. So it's natural to think 'well, if the subforum is gone..."

Okay, I gotta know... for the lulz, you understand... how many of the people who have said that have posted in the ML/RRR?

Just to clarify, I'm trolling here, not trying to, as Harkius would say, get a dog into this fight.

[Blackhound]

Sorry, could not help but laugh.

[Nai]

I'm not sure I follow that line of thinking. It's not as if the administration doesn't have
access to the Gutter. Also the Zombie Gutter sucks, nobody wants to post there. It's not on the list reasons I want access to my Kaitscralt account.

From how its been explained to me, it's basically a banner. A psychological 'We have the hill, let's hold it' thing, i guess?

Would you like me to explain what's wrong with this or should I just shut the fuck up?

Edit- @Blackhound: Not kewl, dude. Glitches like that aren't a laughing matter.

I don't necessarily agree with it. But a lot of the problems here has been specifically about that subforum, less about the actual people in it. The entire concept, the posts therein, so on and so forth. So it's natural to think 'well, if the subforum is gone..."

Okay, I gotta know... for the lulz, you understand... how many of the people who have said that have posted in the ML/RRR?

Just to clarify, I'm trolling here, not trying to, as Harkius would say, get a dog into this
fight.

I'm not sure I understand the question?

[Col. Khaddafi]

I don't necessarily agree with it. But a lot of the problems here has been specifically about that subforum, less about the actual people in it. The entire concept, the posts therein, so on and so forth. So it's natural to think 'well, if the subforum is gone..."

The shutdown of the gutter forum was announced according to a premise which was proved wrong since: that the gutter had flamed an innocent lurker to the point he asked to have his account deleted. Evidence has been brought that m00se flamed people in there and was unceremoniously booted, just like many before him.

Most of the beef against the gutter was instigated by administrator rianalnn after the Gutter got increasingly antagonistic against his way of managing the site (in
the wake of the scapegoating of a moderator due to WCT drama).

Basically, the Gutter was not causing any drama when it was decided by rianalnn that it needed to go. All the drama can be traced to this alpha event. Compare this with the tenure of Admin Azrael, where many gutter members showed goodwill and helped managing the site for better (For example, It was an honor for me to serve with with Brandoncide in making WCT a light-hearted easygoing forum, and Kijin was one of the longer standing staff-members of the site).

I mean, my beef is that its fairly convenient to blame the Gutter for all the bad that took place when a more closer analysis shows a different picture: that the actions of the former and present staff led to a huge dramabomb when they took it upon their hands to fix what wasn't broken.

The result is clearly visible. A smoldering crater in MTGS where a thriving community lied before, a bunch of unfairly banned people, and yet another hit to the reputation of the site (which is
already the laughing stock of the internet).

Was this worth all the trouble guys?

[Pendulum]

@Nai: Nevermind, not important. Float on.

[Blackhound]

I don't necessarily agree with it. But a lot of the problems here has been specifically about that subforum, less about the actual people in it. The entire concept, the posts therein, so on and so forth. So it's natural to think 'well, if the subforum is gone..."

The shutdown of the gutter forum was announced according to a premise which was proved wrong since: that the gutter had flamed an innocent lurker to the point he asked to have his account deleted. Evidence has been brought that m00se flamed people in there and was unceremoniously booted, just like many
before him.

Most of the beef against the gutter was instigated by administrator rianalnn after the Gutter got increasingly antagonistic against his way of managing the site (in the wake of the scapegoating of a moderator due to WCT drama).

Basically, the Gutter was not causing any drama when it was decided by rianalnn that it needed to go. All the drama can be traced to this alpha event. Compare this with the tenure of Admin Azrael, where many gutter members showed goodwill and helped managing the site for better (For example, It was an honor for me to serve with with Brandoncide in making WCT a light-hearted easygoing forum, and Kijin was one of the longer standing staff-members of the site).

I mean, my beef is that its fairly convenient to blame the Gutter for all the bad that took place when a more closer analysis shows a different picture: that the actions of the former and present staff led to a huge dramabomb when they took it upon their hands to fix what wasn't broken.

The result is
clearly visible. A smoldering crater in MTGS where a thriving community lied before, a bunch of unfairly banned people, and yet another hit to the reputation of the site (which is already the laughing stock of the internet).

Was this worth all the trouble guys?

That and whichever Admin/Global sent you that aim.

[ExarionUniverse1]

I had left this site alone for a while after my last post here, since I didn't feel I should intrude any longer. Az talking directly to me on 'Salvation had me curious. I decided to look over here, and was pleasantly surprised by this.

Current MTGS administration:
I'm sorry I used my anger over my friends being banned and mutual misinformation (we both operated on information we had incorrect, this fact is a wash) in an attempt to undermine negotiations for selling your website to curse. The beautification process you guys were enforcing looked to me to be harmful to the site beyond just gutter discussion, but I overstepped my bounds by assuming the worst, conflagrating the situation, and letting my emotions get the better of me.

I am sorry
I have at times not been more patient with you and have lost my patience with you (and other members). Your responses and decisions are slow and processes generally move glacially, but there are far more people on MTGS than just me and many of them are trying to talk to you individually, including a mass of others also active in discussions alongside me. Many times talking to you I feel ignored, and as has been mentioned often, it sucks to be made to feel like you don't matter. Still, I could be more patient instead of less patient.

These are the issues I believe I've had with you collectively in the past. I want to move past these issues I've been at fault for. This is my attempt to move past them.

Kijin, I hope you're being honest in this post and not showing it in jest. Because it's a sentiment I've been wanting to see from anyone for quite some time.

I'm going to speak for myself here. I'd like to make it very, very clear that this is me. Nai. Not the staff. I speak for
myself and no one else.

I believe we made a lot of mistakes. I know I did; as much time as I put in trying to work on the problems between the Staff and the Gutter, I absolutely failed to talk to you guys enough. Kijin has brought that up with me time and again. There are many times where I got caught up with the heat of the moment and spoke to my fellow staff members and came to a conclusion before speaking directly to the people who had information I didn't have.

I do know that some actions that I supported were done off the cuff, with little thought but 'how do we respond to this'. Some actions we took were made because we were in a situation we didn't know, with not enough experience to handle it. Some actions we took because we were misunderstanding the situation, the requirements, the requests. Some actions we took were based on faulty facts and conclusions.

Some actions we took snowballed because of other actions we took.

Some of the bans that were applied were done while I was offline,
so I can't speak for those. These include Kpaca and Kijin. There were others that were done with me giving the go-ahead from my corner, from where I was sitting. You're going to ask me that, if I think we made mistakes, why don't we unban? From where I sit, even now, even looking back, I do believe the bans were the correct action, that they were valid, based on the information at hand at the time.

So the next question is why not unban now? And this is, again, where I speak only for myself. Where I cannot speak for my fellow staff, because they have their own opinions. As you are well aware, we work by voting in the mod lounge in major issues. Everyone has their voice.

On many of you, I've voted to unban. Kpaca has had my vote for a while. Madding, with a recent set of PMs he's sent to Sene, has had my vote

For me, right now, unbans rely on one very little thing: If you guys return to the site, are we going to be back here again? Are we going to have these issues? Can we rely on you to work [i:
17tip0kx]with[/i] us to make the site better? For those that are actively following CI (and I know there's a few), we've been making changes. Working to better the site for everyone. Suspension evasion is no longer such a hard line anymore, as an example. And we're still working. We want to make lives easier. Both our own, so we don't have to worry about being hardasses, so we don't have to work so hard, so we can get our fun back, as GR so eloquently put it. And we want to make your lives better. So you don't have to look over your shoulder as you post, you don't have to worry if you're going to get in trouble with 'the man' for posting. I don't want that on 'Salvation. For you or anyone else.

The major problem I have, right now, is the attitude that's going back and forth. The staff distrusts you guys, you guys distrust the staff. It feeds off each other. It escalates. It leads to situations like this.

There are things that you guys want that 'Salvation can't provide. The
Gutter, plainly, is probably one of those things. You guys now have this site, which is growing rapidly and has a wonderful foundation, to do that in. You can make your own rules and set this up the way you want. You can have your cake and eat it too. But you have to blow the candles out here, because I don't want to clean up the mess there.

Are you willing to work with me?

If your willing to work with the members here, in a civilized manner, I am not talking about myself , since you know I have made myself clear by offering my place as neutral ground on Oct. 26 in a aim for you.

[Pendulum]

Oh by the way, guys, it's kind of distrustful of you to have a hidden CI forum. Have faith in your own ability to lead! I know you're leery of the idea but trust me, once you put faith in yourself you'll find that faith has been there the whole time.

[Thrillho]

I had left this site alone for a while after my last post here, since I didn't feel I should intrude any longer. Az talking directly to me on 'Salvation had me curious. I decided to look over here, and was pleasantly surprised by this.

Current MTGS administration:
I'm sorry I used my anger over my friends being banned and mutual misinformation (we both operated on information we had incorrect, this fact is a wash) in an attempt to undermine negotiations for selling your website to curse. The beautification process you guys were enforcing looked to me to be harmful to the site beyond just gutter discussion, but I overstepped my bounds by assuming the worst, conflagrating the situation, and letting my emotions get the better of me.

I am sorry I
have at times not been more patient with you and have lost my patience with you (and other members). Your responses and decisions are slow and processes generally move glacially, but there are far more people on MTGS than just me and many of them are trying to talk to you individually, including a mass of others also active in discussions alongside me. Many times talking to you I feel ignored, and as has been mentioned often, it sucks to be made to feel like you don't matter. Still, I could be more patient instead of less patient.

These are the issues I believe I've had with you collectively in the past. I want to move past these issues I've been at fault for. This is my attempt to move past them.

Kijin, I hope you're being honest in this post and not showing it in jest. Because it's a sentiment I've been wanting to see from anyone for quite some time.

I'm going to speak for myself here. I'd like to make it very, very clear that this is me. Nai. Not the staff. I speak for
myself and no one else.

I believe we made a lot of mistakes. I know I did; as much time as I put in trying to work on the problems between the Staff and the Gutter, I absolutely failed to talk to you guys enough. Kijin has brought that up with me time and again. There are many times where I got caught up with the heat of the moment and spoke to my fellow staff members and came to a conclusion before speaking directly to the people who had information I didn't have.

I do know that some actions that I supported were done off the cuff, with little thought but 'how do we respond to this'. Some actions we took were made because we were in a situation we didn't know, with not enough experience to handle it. Some actions we took because we were misunderstanding the situation, the requirements, the requests. Some actions we took were based on faulty facts and conclusions.

Some actions we took snowballed because of other actions we took.

Some of the bans that were applied were done while I was offline,
so I can't speak for those. These include Kpaca and Kijin. There were others that were done with me giving the go-ahead from my corner, from where I was sitting. You're going to ask me that, if I think we made mistakes, why don't we unban? From where I sit, even now, even looking back, I do believe the bans were the correct action, that they were valid, based on the information at hand at the time.

So the next question is why not unban now? And this is, again, where I speak only for myself. Where I cannot speak for my fellow staff, because they have their own opinions. As you are well aware, we work by voting in the mod lounge in major issues. Everyone has their voice.

On many of you, I've voted to unban. Kpaca has had my vote for a while. Madding, with a recent set of PMs he's sent to Sene, has had my vote

For me, right now, unbans rely on one very little thing: If you guys return to the site, are we going to be back here again? Are we going to have these issues? Can we rely on you to work [i:
3j3n1095]with[/i] us to make the site better? For those that are actively following CI (and I know there's a few), we've been making changes. Working to better the site for everyone. Suspension evasion is no longer such a hard line anymore, as an example. And we're still working. We want to make lives easier. Both our own, so we don't have to worry about being hardasses, so we don't have to work so hard, so we can get our fun back, as GR so eloquently put it. And we want to make your lives better. So you don't have to look over your shoulder as you post, you don't have to worry if you're going to get in trouble with 'the man' for posting. I don't want that on 'Salvation. For you or anyone else.

The major problem I have, right now, is the attitude that's going back and forth. The staff distrusts you guys, you guys distrust the staff. It feeds off each other. It escalates. It leads to situations like this.

There are things that you guys want that 'Salvation can't provide. The
Gutter, plainly, is probably one of those things. You guys now have this site, which is growing rapidly and has a wonderful foundation, to do that in. You can make your own rules and set this up the way you want. You can have your cake and eat it too. But you have to blow the candles out here, because I don't want to clean up the mess there.

Are you willing to work with me?

Nai,
Right now I've just moved the entire contents of my room plus a desk plus a very large nightstand around my apartment and am not physically capable of reading a lot of words, but I'm so fucking fed up of this cycle of people jerking off on each other's faces via text every time it looks like there's some dialog happening like the least subtle prono of all time that if I were bullshitting you it would only be after having hit myself in the face with a goddamn hammer to the point of lobotomy. Since it is clear that the largest bulk of moving this desperate ritual into its endgame involves people coming to the
table with some level of humility and neither side is willing to step up as the first person to jerk off on the cookie (I am moving between sex and magic card-based analogies because that's how base my thought process is when I am this exhausted, so my apologies for NSFW and magic-based dialog), I will step up and be the first man to abandon pride to get this ball rolling.

You're asking me if I'm willing to work with you, but in asking that you have to understand this process is a two-way street. We're both very bruised and battered and we're not going anywhere if we don't use each other as a crutch. I'm willing to work with you; are you willing to work with me?

[Thrillho]

@Nai: My apologies for intruding on your conversation, but I, as curious bystander, am very curious what changes to the Gutter's behavior you would like to see, specifically and, as you say, just personally.
Also, WB.

There is no Gutter. We don't give a fuck about the gutter on MTGS. We're past the Gutter. There's no SQL dumps. We don't care about that. It's not an issue. We're going for progress. Let's move on.

[Nai]

Damn, you guys don't have multiquote.

@Col. Khaddafi: I'm not going to mince words: That's exactly the attitude I'm not going to work with. This is not a 'not able'. This is a 'unwilling'. If you are going to passive-aggressively end a post with 'Was it worth it', I'll move on to the next person.

@Exarion: I wouldn't be here if I wasn't willing.

@ Pendulum: We were having some trouble with spambots and with gimmicks made purely to cause trouble in CI, which is why it went hidden.

@ Kijin: I'm on your website to work with you. On your ground. Not mine. That's the best I can offer right now.

[Thrillho]

Unfortunately a lot of people (myself included), feel that unless changes happen on our end if we unban people we will just keep repeating this over and over again. Clearly that isn't a good solution for anyone. I've seen a lot of ideas from a lot of people very high on my "pain in the fuckin anus" list, so I do feel there is hope, but we all have to get into fix-it mode.

I think you will find that this sentiment is unnecessary. The spark that set this massive storm o\f conflagration into motion was the sudden threat of closure to the Gutter --
which is not a thing to debate, it happened, I'm at least not here to complain or point fingers or fight over something retroactively; that is the undeniable source of what raised everyone's hackles, bad stuff happened as a result, this led to this site being made and MTGS without a Gutter.

There were behaviors and attitudes in the Gutter that the site at large is very likely better without, but before that instance they were kept to the Gutter. The site no longer has a Gutter and the discussion that allowed the Gutter to be a hang out spot that functioned the way it did has moved away from MTGS. Who cares how we got to that point, the end result is you guys no longer have to worry about a "The Gutter" on MTGS. There's nothing to repeat because there's no risk of conflagration of members on the site in their clubhouse that will cause them to run, still on fire, into the forums and start setting everything else on fire with them.

I'm a moron for not raising this sooner and we're all
worse off for not shutting our pride functions off as well.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Damn, you guys don't have multiquote.

Yes we do, it just works differently, although vbulletin multiquote is better

@Col. Khaddafi: I'm not going to mince words: That's exactly the attitude I'm not going to work with. This is not a 'not able'. This is a 'unwilling'. If you are going to passive-aggressively end a post with 'Was it worth it', I'll move on to the next person.

Well that's too bad because I'm just playing with your passive-agressive jabs about "why the Gutter had to go because it was a pernicious influence to the main forums".

If
you wanna come around here and uncover your past dirt, I'm going to call you on it, what's the big surprise?

@ Kijin: I'm on your website to work with you. On your ground. Not mine. That's the best I can offer right now.

Its not "our" ground. Its a place where you can discus stuff in a public setting without being infracted.
Its actually the only public place where we can meet since the banned account mtgcommunity proves that the salvation rules take precedence over discussing things like adults in which ever place soothes you guys better.

tl;dr: If you cut your shit out, I'm willing to listen. If you come throwing around bulshit on how the Gutter had to go because we were incompatible with the existence of MTGS I'm going to call you on that. What is so surprising about it?