Open Site Blathering (formerly Advice from iridium ITT)

[iamabadman]

The more I talk to them, the more it sounds like they're really serious about letting you guys back, if you didn't seem so much on edge.

i feel like they're saying this to you to make us look worse. remember they basically said 'fuck all that shit AZ did on the behalf of mod/user relations'

[Azrael]

I think they're genuinely tired of the fighting and looking for a more permanent solution.

EDs:

Define on edge.

Ready to bite their heads off at any opportunity.

[Shalako]

I think they're genuinely tired of the fighting and looking for a more permanent solution.

I thought that was what the Bans were

[Thrillho]

The more I talk to them, the more it sounds like they're really serious about letting you guys back, if you didn't seem so much on edge.

allowing us back or just... like... not either coming here to tell us nothing or flip all the shits at the drop of a hat would go a long way towards that.

even if sene comes across as ineffectual, it's not like his presence here is a negative thing and largely, although we crowd him, it's not like we attack him.

[Kaitscralt]

I think they're genuinely tired of the fighting and looking for a more permanent solution.

I've said it once and I've said it again. There should be no solutions, summits, etc. If they are going to unban us then they need to unban us. It's the fastest way for them to see if we meet their reforms/protocol and give us another chance on the site. If unbanned users don't work out then those users would be banned the same way any problem user is handled. Others probably will do just fine. I don't see what the all the waiting is about. This is not the Treaty of Versailles here. They're just doing the normal Salvation thing and sitting on the issue and hoping another issue arises that negates the first one.

Just this thread is an example:
n
- They say and you Azrael say that they want to let us back
- Nothing happens and we get restless and being humans on a discussion forum start discussing stuff such as the recent CI debate about WCT
- They point to our discussion and say we are not fit for society and Azrael says we are on edge and biting heads

It's so absolutely hilarious that nobody thinks we are blind to such tactics. This thread has essentially turned into the new version of the Gutter Staff Pegging Chamber, with approximately the same amount of input and results from the staff end. It takes a lot of gall to fault us for having raised hackles when we talk in this thread.

--

Unbanning us before Gatecrash is released would be polite, since a lot of us do like Magic, but instead Piggy wants to wait to get handed the conch shell. Spoiler alert: the great beast is all in their minds.

[Kaitscralt]

Seriously, what a crock. If you're going to unban us then unban us.

[Col. Khaddafi]

I have always been working under the assumption that noone is going to be banned.

I mean lets face it, if we are getting these passive-agressive third-party jabs of "we are too scared to post and answer there except Sene who is a SYM warrior" like people post goatse here or something, I don't see why they would be so "bold" as to reverse their mistakes.

Maybe if we start posting ponies and rainbows ITT they will consider making a summit to vote a resolution for taking into consideration the unbanning of the least "aggressive" banned members under a one year probation with the conditions of the probation to be decided at a future summit.

[Col. Khaddafi]

I mean, I post here because I like calling a horse by its name, not because I'm holding my breath over an hypothetical unbanning (lol).

As Azrael put it, I know the staff ego's are too fragile for such bold decisions such as admitting mistakes (not only banning, the wasteland WCT has devolved into is another example, which is conveniently unrelated to any of us).

I wouldn't put behind the possibility of some minor unbannings (like Shalako, poggydude, even Madding) while keeping the trio of guttermods punished, but it would likely be some sort of divide and conquer strategy (we are unbanning these guys because its likely they acted on the bad influence of those guys over there who are staying in the corner with their dunce caps on).

[Col. Khaddafi]

tl;dr: I will continue calling moral corruption by its name ITT everytime I see it. I have no horses in this race, so I'm in a fairly comfortable position.

It's not like I'm about to be banned from this site anywhere soon anyway

[Col. Khaddafi]

The more I talk to them, the more it sounds like they're really serious about letting you guys back, if you didn't seem so much on edge.

Post #1000 on TBSYMTE

[Col. Khaddafi]

I mean its fairly evident that the current administration is deeply entrenched in the Brezhnev age. We are still waiting for a Gorbatchev to step up over ther.

[Azrael]

I've said it once and I've said it again. There should be no solutions, summits, etc. If they are going to unban us then they need to unban us. It's the fastest way for them to see if we meet their reforms/protocol and give us another chance on the site.

It might happen, but the odds aren't good.

Let's remember that these are a bunch of MTG players. Chances are, an above average number of these people went through a school experience that was less than perfectly healthy. The occasional punch in the face to make some of them sensitive about violence. Negativity, insults, issues with self-esteem. When the gutter consistently trashes them, it's like high school all over again for them. A lot of them have a hard time coping with that, and they don't want to just take a chance that the gutterites will stop behaving like the kids they remember, they want evidence
and assurance that it won't continue going again, and that if they do unban you, the pain's going to be over. They're not especially interested in taking a gamble - it just strikes a lot of them as akin to suicide to let you back into arms reach, as you are right now.

On the other hand, there are some of them who recognize that the current state of affairs isn't a perfect, long-term solution either. There's still conflict, there's still ban evasion, there's still friction. And they're tired of that. They continue to think (despite my best efforts) that the exiles were more-or-less rightfully banned, like, they think it was maybe not iron-clad but it was at least within their rights to do it. But, they want the rift to end.

[Kaitscralt]

So why do you keep saying they want to do the right thing and then say the odds aren't good? I'm not sure what you're even talking about. Are you saying they want to have a long drawn out process because they love summits? Because we already know that.

[Mogadishu Jones]

I dont have a dog in this fight. I am only trying to tell you guys from a more moderate position what they're seeing.

Then shutthefuck up.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Seriosly, can we like remove harkius ci permissions? Remember when we asked onar to step off some since he didnt have a dog in the fight? Its time harkius get the same message.

[Col. Khaddafi]

I mean its cool. We can continue having fun in this thread (which is IMO still at his infancy), we can keep passive-agressive discussions by proxy/third-party and we can keep playing cat and mouse games with the gimmicks people set up to access CI.

It makes so much more sense than sitting up at a table and discussing issues. At the very least its way more hilarious.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Seriosly, can we like remove harkius ci permissions? Remember when we asked onar to step off some since he didnt have a dog in the fight? Its time harkius get the same message.

because we're better than MTGS? just put him in ignore if you don't like his posts?

Plus he makes some good points. I think some contributions of him are constructive.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Hes just so whiny and irrelevant and overplayed

[ExarionUniverse1]

I don't think Gals and Nai are cowards. But they don't seem to be gluttons for punishment, either.

If you guys call down for a minute, I don't think you'll find TCM is being unreasonable here, at all.

If you're a mod on a forum, you don't punish people for behavior that took place elsewhere, but if you're deciding what to do about conduct that took place on your site I can hardly say it doesn't make sense to take behavior from elsewhere into account when deciding whether to let someone back in who might go on a rampage, and use whatever evidence (twitter, facebook, their blog, whatever) in making that decision.

I did that myself, as admin, and I'd do it again. You have a job to do - to protect the site from people who want to mess it up. If
it's a good enough tactic for law enforcement, it's good enough for me.

Kpaca and a lot of other people should never have been banned to begin with. I think that's pretty painfully clear. And I think that because that's the case, the behavior that's taken place since then ought to be ignored. It should not matter - the initial actions were invalid and that clearly and understandably antagonized everyone here.

But if I were focused solely on your guys' attitude alone, and I wasn't paying attention to how you guys came to be so (rightfully) PO'd to begin with - I'd be pretty hesitant about letting you guys back in too. Obviously, you guys are not happy about what's happened and you're not ready to forgive. That much makes sense - and it is something that's completely under your control.

Humiliating to cave in, when the initial bans were unjustified? Sure. But I take them at their word that they'd let you back in, if you weren't lashing out at most any staff member who comes within reach.
If you don't want to bend the knee on principle, I can respect that. But at the very least, if people want to have their appeals taken seriously, they need to chill out and quit taking the most pessimistic possible assessment of the staff at every turn. However bad it's been with them, and it's been pretty bad, it's not as bad as you guys are fond of saying it is. Like, they're not a cabalistic group of corrupt Bond villains, people. They're just a bunch of guys.

I have to admit that I also use info from other sites to make opinions of members who I want on my place. Every site does this.

and honestly some of guys are being impractical and confrontational. The fact that Cold monarch ( The Guardian) even answers a troll means that he is willing to answer any complaints you guys have.

If you guys don't wish to go back to MTGS, at least respect those that do and the few in the staff that are willing to listen and try.

[Pendulum]

I have always been working under the assumption that noone is going to be banned.

I mean lets face it, if we are getting these passive-agressive third-party jabs of "we are too scared to post and answer there except Sene who is a SYM warrior" like people post goatse here or something, I don't see why they would be so "bold" as to reverse their mistakes.

Maybe if we start posting ponies and rainbows ITT they will consider making a summit to vote a resolution for taking into consideration the unbanning of the least "aggressive" banned members under a one year probation with the conditions of the probation to be decided at a future summit.

[img]http://www.
costumesupercenter.com/s7/mediumlarge/LA28116[/img]

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

close enough ^

[Pendulum]

Still trying to find a picture of a unicorn that's okay to post. Some of those pictures, man... poor, poor Rainbow Dash.

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

Turn on safe search at that point.

[Kaitscralt]

You shouldn't know the names of any unicorns

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

Or take the girl pic and add a unicorn horn to it.

[Pendulum]

Or take the girl pic and add a unicorn horn to it.

Yeah, there's a couple of those... oh wait you mean on her head?

[Thrillho]

Current MTGS administration:
I'm sorry I used my anger over my friends being banned and mutual misinformation (we both operated on information we had incorrect, this fact is a wash) in an attempt to undermine negotiations for selling your website to curse. The beautification process you guys were enforcing looked to me to be harmful to the site beyond just gutter discussion, but I overstepped my bounds by assuming the worst, conflagrating the situation, and letting my emotions get the better of me.

I am sorry I have at times not been more patient with you and have lost my patience with you (and other members). Your responses and decisions are slow and processes generally move glacially, but there are far more people on MTGS than just me and many of them are trying to talk to you individually, including a mass of others also active in discussions alongside me. Many times talking to you I feel ignored, and as has been
mentioned often, it sucks to be made to feel like you don't matter. Still, I could be more patient instead of less patient.

These are the issues I believe I've had with you collectively in the past. I want to move past these issues I've been at fault for. This is my attempt to move past them.

[iamabadman]

dear iridium,

i'm not banned. go fuck yourself.

i dont speak for the others

love, Randall T.

[Blackhound]

The MTG Salvation Forums database has encountered a problem.

Is it allright your end Sene ?

[Kaitscralt]

It's been down for almost a day, I believe the rumor is that the summit about unbanning kpaca got too passionate and the site broke

[Blackhound]

It's been down for almost a day, I believe the rumor is that the summit about unbanning kpaca got too passionate and the site broke

My educated guess is that there will be new stuff on the site.

[Kaitscralt]

Or something malicious occurred.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Col. Khaddafi, Blackhound, ExarionUniverse1 and 3 guests

[Blackhound]

4 guests, come register dudes.

[Nai]

I had left this site alone for a while after my last post here, since I didn't feel I should intrude any longer. Az talking directly to me on 'Salvation had me curious. I decided to look over here, and was pleasantly surprised by this.

Current MTGS administration:
I'm sorry I used my anger over my friends being banned and mutual misinformation (we both operated on information we had incorrect, this fact is a wash) in an attempt to undermine negotiations for selling your website to curse. The beautification process you guys were enforcing looked to me to be harmful to the site beyond just gutter discussion, but I overstepped my bounds by assuming the worst, conflagrating the situation, and letting my emotions get the better of me.

I am sorry I have at times not been more patient with you and have lost my patience with you (and other members). Your responses and decisions are slow and processes generally
move glacially, but there are far more people on MTGS than just me and many of them are trying to talk to you individually, including a mass of others also active in discussions alongside me. Many times talking to you I feel ignored, and as has been mentioned often, it sucks to be made to feel like you don't matter. Still, I could be more patient instead of less patient.

These are the issues I believe I've had with you collectively in the past. I want to move past these issues I've been at fault for. This is my attempt to move past them.

Kijin, I hope you're being honest in this post and not showing it in jest. Because it's a sentiment I've been wanting to see from anyone for quite some time.

I'm going to speak for myself here. I'd like to make it very, very clear that this is me. Nai. Not the staff. I speak for myself and no one else.

I believe we made a lot of mistakes. I know I did; as much time as I put in trying to work on the problems between the Staff and the
Gutter, I absolutely failed to talk to you guys enough. Kijin has brought that up with me time and again. There are many times where I got caught up with the heat of the moment and spoke to my fellow staff members and came to a conclusion before speaking directly to the people who had information I didn't have.

I do know that some actions that I supported were done off the cuff, with little thought but 'how do we respond to this'. Some actions we took were made because we were in a situation we didn't know, with not enough experience to handle it. Some actions we took because we were misunderstanding the situation, the requirements, the requests. Some actions we took were based on faulty facts and conclusions.

Some actions we took snowballed because of other actions we took.

Some of the bans that were applied were done while I was offline, so I can't speak for those. These include Kpaca and Kijin. There were others that were done with me giving the go-ahead from my corner, from where I was
sitting. You're going to ask me that, if I think we made mistakes, why don't we unban? From where I sit, even now, even looking back, I do believe the bans were the correct action, that they were valid, based on the information at hand at the time.

So the next question is why not unban now? And this is, again, where I speak only for myself. Where I cannot speak for my fellow staff, because they have their own opinions. As you are well aware, we work by voting in the mod lounge in major issues. Everyone has their voice.

On many of you, I've voted to unban. Kpaca has had my vote for a while. Madding, with a recent set of PMs he's sent to Sene, has had my vote

For me, right now, unbans rely on one very little thing: If you guys return to the site, are we going to be back here again? Are we going to have these issues? Can we rely on you to work with us to make the site better? For those that are actively following CI (and I know there's a few), we've been making changes.
Working to better the site for everyone. Suspension evasion is no longer such a hard line anymore, as an example. And we're still working. We want to make lives easier. Both our own, so we don't have to worry about being hardasses, so we don't have to work so hard, so we can get our fun back, as GR so eloquently put it. And we want to make your lives better. So you don't have to look over your shoulder as you post, you don't have to worry if you're going to get in trouble with 'the man' for posting. I don't want that on 'Salvation. For you or anyone else.

The major problem I have, right now, is the attitude that's going back and forth. The staff distrusts you guys, you guys distrust the staff. It feeds off each other. It escalates. It leads to situations like this.

There are things that you guys want that 'Salvation can't provide. The Gutter, plainly, is probably one of those things. You guys now have this site, which is growing rapidly and has a wonderful foundation, to do that in. You
can make your own rules and set this up the way you want. You can have your cake and eat it too. But you have to blow the candles out here, because I don't want to clean up the mess there.

Are you willing to work with me?

[Blackhound]

GALSPANIC IS HERE, HOORAY.

[Blackhound]

Users browsing this forum: admin, Blackhound, galspanic, Kaitscralt, Pendulum and 3 guests

[Col. Khaddafi]

One of them is def. not Galspanic since he fortunately (no sarcasm implied) got the guts to register.

EDIT: Sarnath'd

[Pendulum]

@Nai: My apologies for intruding on your conversation, but I, as curious bystander, am very curious what changes to the Gutter's behavior you would like to see, specifically and, as you say, just personally.
Also, WB.

[Galspanic]

One of them is def. not Galspanic since he fortunately (no sarcasm implied) got the guts to register.

EDIT: Sarnath'd

It wasn't a matter of guts so much as you already know I am here and I had to get my fix.

I just hope the gigantic essays your guys rip out aren't expected. I suck at writing long stuff and have the patience of a Pomeranian.