(POST ROTATION) JESKAI BURN

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:03 am

Having a double white requirement for t3 severely warps your mana base.

BiddingMaster · Postby **BiddingMaster** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:20 am

[deck]
creatures
4 seeker of the way
3 satyr firedancer
4 mantis rider

enchantments
4 chained to the rocks

burn spells
4 lightning strike
4 stoke the flames
4 magma jet
3 deflecting palm
4 jeskai charm
3 mindswipe

lands
9 mountain
4 temple of enlightenment
3 shivan reef
2 battlefield forge
2 mana confluence
2 plains
1 island

sideboard
2 suspension field
1 deflecting palm
1 keranos, God of storms
2 disdainful stroke
2 chandra, pyromaster
4 eidolon of the great revel
3 hushwing gryff[/deck]

ok so going forward im totally not on the 5 drop plan because tapping out is not what we want to do. I really wished i had tweaked my decklist a little before I went to this last event but wtf live and learn or not learn as khaos suggests i do. I never really thought about how good the seeker of the way is especially against t2 cryatid. There are going to be board states where he is a little
lackluster but i think all in all he is a very solid beatdown plan that we can use and I beleive we can keep the board clear enough to get him in for the kill. I want to be as tricky as possible not as grindy as possible. Other decks do the grindy thing a bit better than we can and they also have sarkhans as well. Im still sold on every card in this list and I found myself needing extra cards to deal with hornet queen because damn its a bitch if our opps see it hence the hushwings. There are decks where I want the swipes and there are decks where I want the gryffs. Any devotion strategy puts alot of pressure really quick so i needed a way to cancel effects and deal damage so maybe I should cut mindswipe altogether and just run the gryffs. I feel like im getting closer and closer to the correct build and I really like how this new build doesnt fold to aggro like my last one. Deflecting palm is still awsome and it does a damned fine lightning helix impression. I dont think it has not dealt less than 4 damage
the whole time and ive maxed out at 8 points so far. Mindswipe probably just needs to be three and i might run one less stoke to run one gryff in the main. I also dont like rabblerman because he commits me too much to a certain strategy and i feel is less flexible and I cant afford his price tag right now anyway. So for now this is the list im going to try and jam for my next event and see how it runs.

jsilv · Postby **jsilv** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:52 am

Tested a tweak to your list all night jsilv, LOVE the way Jace played.

2 Sarkhan
1 Jace
1 Chandra

Also dig is broken.

Oh I like that. This may actually be a place where Jace happens to line up well. And yeah, Dig is super good.

TBuzzsaw · Postby **TBuzzsaw** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:00 am

I lost to two different Jeskai decks in the past few days because I had no idea how to handle it. Jeskai can be vastly different from each other and I had a hard time figuring out what angle they are trying to beat from and what cards they are running. That's a HUGE advantage to this deck right now. It's new and can vary greatly from one deck and another that players probably wouldn't even know how and what to sideboard, at least that's what happened with me.

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:19 pm

He's not talking about the "as" effect. He's referring to the "if" trigger, which can be responded to.

Oh right. You think I'd remember that since he and I were talking about that specific card and trigger last week.

TheCleaner · Postby **TheCleaner** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:21 pm

guys guys you all are missing the best most uberbroken card ever: Spellheart Chimera!!

No really, could be a nice fun-of...

RaidaTheBlade · Postby **RaidaTheBlade** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:22 pm

List I'm looking at right now:
[deck]
Creatures (14)
3 Seeker of the Way
4 Mantis Rider
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Ashcloud Phoenix

Spells (19)
4 Jeskai Charm
4 Stoke the Flames
3 Arc Lightning
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet

Planeswalkers (3)
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker

Lands (24)
4 Mystic Monastery
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Shivan Reef
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Deflecting Palm
3 Banishing Light
2 Dig Through Time
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
[/deck]

Arc lightnings are mainly there since aggro is big at the moment, and it's not dead cause I can pitch all 3 at face. My mana base is also very slow compared to some, so it can help save me if I durdle too much.

Once/if the format settles and slower decks become big, then they leave for digs or jace or some
combination thereof.

dpaine88 · Postby **dpaine88** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:38 pm

I've been running Arc Lightning as a 1-of and it has been pretty great. You can't complain about more burn and getting a 3 for 1 vs the aggro decks is so nice.

The more I think about Jace, isn't it just a bad, harder to cast Chandra?

Without Shock and Chained, the fast aggro decks can get a pretty fast start on you. Chandra is really nice to stabilize as it actually kills an X/1.

Then again, how good is Chandra really? We sideboarded it all last season- mostly for small aggro and control.

Now there isn't a good control deck and its a sea of green midrange decks- where Chandra is at her worst.

The more I think about it Phoenix is just better except small aggro and it isn't even terrible since you basically get two blocks out of it. You should be pretty solid against aggro anyways.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:48 pm

I think this is what I am going to try based on my results in the last week.

[deck]Raka Counterburn[/deck]

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:25 pm

Ashcloud main is not where you want to be. Ive tested it for about 25 games, and its just too slow for the g1 you are trying to play, the same reason SBD was bad. Tapping out in the later turns of the game severely limits your lines of play and shifts you more towards a burn approach. The rabble red matchup (at least the one I have in my gauntlet, Khaos' list) is actually pretty bad game one, and I am running 3 arc lightning. Hordeling outburst is annoying as fuck, the added goblins + stoke/lightning strike kill our blockers easily.

Ideally, we want to be creating the most streamlined and consistent deck for G1, admittingly (apparently "admittedly" is the correct word) I think Arc Lightning is pretty terrible in the midrange matchups, but winning G1 against aggro decks is just big game. I still think mono red and mono black are tough matchups postboard.

I like magma jet, but I never want two in my opening
hand, and would prefer not to draw a second before turn 5/6.

I liked SOME of the thought Jacob Van Lunen had in his article today, but I think his assessment of what cards to side out are off (I'm not sure you need 4 magma spray). JSilv I think the two magma sprays should be magma jet, sometimes digging for lands is crucial, and a turn 3 magma jet after a turn 2 seeker is still nice (due to arc lightning being pretty shitty vs green, I have a 3/3 split between magma jet and arc). I love that seeker helps balance the life loss from pain lands, which I think are also another thing about the list that shows preference (between pain lands, more basics/fetches, more scrys).

Here is my current list, I would like to reowork the mana base if I can get more fetches.

[deck]Purple Tempo[/deck]

Jace was great for me last night in testing, obviously a bit weaker vs aggro decks than chandra, but I'd argue he is better than her in midrange matchups right now. Between his -3, and charm bounce, having two timewalkesque spells is very powerful when you are trying to get a rabble master to swing in, or setup a big sarkhan swing next turn. I could honestly see cutting chandra, as I am not sure what she really offers game one (when compared to what an extra slot could do for problem matchups in Game 1)

I am not sure if I want banishing light in the main yet,
I could see how it would be very strong. I would love to hear more about any testing you have Jsilv with Phoenix. Is it really THAT good vs midrange decks, better than just playing a shitload of disdainful strokes and harness by force?

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:46 pm

Phoenix actually seems pretty good against all these midrange decks full of x/4s. You can play defense if you want and then you get a 2/2 out of the deal with the upside of getting it back again.

What I've come to discover is that this deck actually sees 6 land quite often and being able to loop Phoenix ad nauseum seems unbeatable in midrange matchups.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:59 pm

I am playing a more Delver-esque game of dropping a threat and protecting it than the decks with Seeker. My LGS was full of Junk and Gruul decks last week with a few people trying control. There were only a few aggro decks and my configuration was able to stop them all the same.

I am trying to sort out my threat package right now. Phoenix costs only 4 to start and still can hit for 4 but lacks haste and can be mana intensive to keep recurring. Stormbreath has haste and is immune to a lot of the popular removal but can be killed by Sarkhan, Downfall and Cut. Sarkhan is immune to most creature removal and can kill opposing dragons but is vulnerable to being killed by Abzan Charm, Utter End or a return attack.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:12 pm

Phoenix actually seems pretty good against all these midrange decks full of x/4s. You can play defense if you want and then you get a 2/2 out of the deal with the upside of getting it back again.

What I've come to discover is that this deck actually sees 6 land quite often and being able to loop Phoenix ad nauseum seems unbeatable in midrange matchups.

In game 1 vs green decks, you have mantis rider and rabble master (which they can't remove), when backed up by burn spells, bounce and sarkhan, nothing they are presenting is that threatening (especially since they are reliant on mana dorks, which are killed with ease). I never want to tap out on turn 4 for a non hasted threat. When they are siding in Disciples, and you need an evasive
threat to make up for the lifegain then phoenix is perfect. However, I expect Hornet Queen (sucks to deal with) and Arbor Colossus to see more play out of those decks. Green decks also have settesian tactics, which is pretty good vs tempo. I'm not arguing against phoenix in the SB, but I am hesitant to tap out on turn 4 to play a non hasted threat, when I could be Disdainful Stroking their bomb. Not to mention Deflecting Palm when they alpha. Phoenix to me is much stronger vs Bx midrange decks than Gx.

Hitting 6 mana is somewhat easy, but hitting 6 mana on turn 6 is not THAT easy, and is not frequent. A lot of my digs which happen later than turn 5 involve getting an untapped source and spell/threat.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:15 pm

What would you suggest I put in that slot then? I would prefer it to be some form of threat. Decklist is above.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:22 pm

In your list it's different because you are trying to play counter burn (I think its a format where you want to be playing a threat, or representing a burn spell), Seeker still seems good as does Swiftspear (Honestly, pheonix is probably fine for your list. My point to val was for what I thought he was referencing, tempo). Your only turn two plays are searing blood and lightning strike (nothing worth negating on 2, and wouldn't disdainful just be better in G1?). How has mindswipe been? I am looking into ideas for the mirror, and so far I have Narset and Sarkhan, hoping mindswipe could be good (however not sure of it's application elsewhere)

I think you should also find room for Dig, you can dig for a counterspell when need be!

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:47 pm

Negate has been pretty good to me. I have Negated some cheaper spells, particularly Thoughtsieze if I am protecting something in my hand. Stroke might be better overall though since, as you say, I tend to use them later in the game. Mindswipe has been excellent for me. I usually only cast it for 1-3 but they stopped critical spells each time. A lot of my games are close so the extra damage has proven useful. I am going to try moving up to 3 and see how that works. Narset is likely fine in the mirror since none of our creatures (save Stormbreath which should be attacking anyway) can kill her in combat. I also like Keranos as a sustainable threat. Now that I think about it, I may want to move him into my main deck.

Whole · Postby **Whole** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:11 pm

I'm playing a slower list than you with Keranos main, and I'm actually looking to move him to the board. I find he is either really good or kind of useless. Against grindy midrange matchups & control...and I guess the mirror, he is amazing. But it feels really bad to draw him against Green devotion, monsters, and aggro. The games feel decided by the time you draw or play him in those matchups. So I guess it's a meta call, but I'm expecting huge numbers of devotion locally so I'm putting him in the board.

List for reference:

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:17 pm

Don't think this deck wants rabblemaster. Could be wrong, but brimaz just feels like such a better fit in this deck. The way you lose is your opponent kills all your creatures and/or you fall to far behind. Rabblemaster is both easy to kill and pretty bad when you're losing. Brimaz addresses both issues at once. Also added the speculative ashcloud phoenix to the main. Another hard to kill threat. I could see cutting one for a spicy slot like dissolve, god's willing, or arc lightning.

[deck]4 Seeker of the Way
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Mantis Rider
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
4 Jeskai Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Banishing Light
4 Stoke the Flames
1 Dig Through Time
1 Disdainful Stroke

Mana:
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Mystic Monastery
2 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Shivan Reef[/deck]

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:23 pm

I like the idea of Brimaz, especially the part where he survives Anger. I do worry about supporting double white when my deck is mostly UR.

Whole · Postby **Whole** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:33 pm

LP I definitely think you're right about Brimaz. I reached the same conclusions. My deck I posted above got me to split the finals of a playset tournament (so 2x each card in khans & $100), and I think I would not have got there if it was Rabblemaster instead. The main thing that drew me to Brimaz over Rabblemaster is that it can freely attack into Courser along with all of the other perks like hosing aggro. There isn't enough answers for Courser in these colors while simultaneously being able to answer follow up monsters like Polukranos.

I even watched all the streamed games in the Open of the Jeskai Tempo decks, and noted when they drew and played Rabblemaster just to validate my hypothesis. Brimaz was either slightly or much better in 6 of 7 scenarios. The 1 scenario he wasn't better was when the Rabblemaster generated 1 token before getting Banishing Light'd, and I don't think that token made a difference.
Twice I noticed how easy a Polukranos was able to just kill a Rabblemaster and put the Jeskai deck in very dicey racing situations. If Brimaz would've been there instead, he'd be able to hold off Polukranos because the green player wouldn't be able to afford a crack back. One game, a Abzan player went Fleecemane Lion into Courser while the Jeskai deck played a useless Rabblemaster. If it would've been Brimaz, the UWR player would've easily been able to attack or force the Junk player to use removal. Two matchups, I saw Rabblemaster get held off by random Rattleclaw Mystics or some random 2/x (I named it "random durdles" in my notes). And one match was a very dicey racing scenario versus mono black aggro where Brimaz would've easily made that game unwinnable for the aggro player.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:41 pm

Perhaps something along the lines of this?

[deck]Raka Counterburn[/deck]

Another option to get Rabble through would be to play some Ride Down in my sideboard. If you offer a trade with a Courser, you know they will take it nearly every time.

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:45 pm

Once you commit to a card like ride down, you want to a commit to a much more aggressive deck so it doesn't just rot in your hand for a while.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:49 pm

The double white is most troubling. Since we are going to want to drop this on curve, I have no idea how we can do it with the 13-14 white sources that we listed.

dpaine88 · Postby **dpaine88** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:48 pm

Ashcloud main is not where you want to be. Ive tested it for about 25 games, and its just too slow for the g1 you are trying to play, the same reason SBD was bad. Tapping out in the later turns of the game severely limits your lines of play and shifts you more towards a burn approach. The rabble red matchup (at least the one I have in my gauntlet, Khaos' list) is actually pretty bad game one, and I am running 3 arc lightning. Hordeling outburst is annoying as fuck, the added goblins + stoke/lightning strike kill our blockers easily.

Ideally, we want to be creating the most streamlined and consistent deck for G1, admittingly (apparently "admittedly" is the correct word) I think Arc Lightning is pretty terrible in the midrange matchups, but winning G1
against aggro decks is just big game. I still think mono red and mono black are tough matchups postboard.

I like magma jet, but I never want two in my opening hand, and would prefer not to draw a second before turn 5/6.

I liked SOME of the thought Jacob Van Lunen had in his article today, but I think his assessment of what cards to side out are off (I'm not sure you need 4 magma spray). JSilv I think the two magma sprays should be magma jet, sometimes digging for lands is crucial, and a turn 3 magma jet after a turn 2 seeker is still nice (due to arc lightning being pretty shitty vs green, I have a 3/3 split between magma jet and arc). I love that seeker helps balance the life loss from pain lands, which I think are also another thing about the list that shows preference (between pain lands, more basics/fetches, more scrys).

Here is my current list, I would like to reowork the mana base if I can get more fetches.

[deck]Purple Tempo[/deck]

Jace was great for me last night in testing, obviously a bit weaker vs aggro decks than chandra, but I'd argue he is better than her in midrange matchups right now. Between his -3, and charm bounce, having two timewalkesque spells is very powerful when you are trying to get a rabble master to swing in, or setup a big sarkhan swing next turn. I could honestly see cutting chandra, as I am not sure what she
really offers game one (when compared to what an extra slot could do for problem matchups in Game 1)

I am not sure if I want banishing light in the main yet, I could see how it would be very strong. I would love to hear more about any testing you have Jsilv with Phoenix. Is it really THAT good vs midrange decks, better than just playing a shitload of disdainful strokes and harness by force?

So I am a little confused.

You say Phoenix is too slow because you have to tap out turn 4+ for him, yet you run 2 4-mana planeswalkers in Jace and Chandra that take the Phoenix spot. I don't see how your argument doesnt work both ways. Since you have him in your sideboard, what are you bringing him in for? Green?

Additionally, I dont think straining the mana for Jace is worth it, at all.

He sucks against aggro game 1 , Chandra is way better.

You say he time-walks them if they play a big guy and you bounce it but Chandra +1 stops it from blocking anyways so its just as good for
getting your guys through.
The card draw is also probably better than Jace since you actually get the card- although it could be worse since no selection.

Additionally-, I see some anti-synergy between Arc and Seeker because it is a sorcery and Seeker is at his best when you can cast instants or they have to respect it and you get in damage without having to pump. Searing Blood could be an option.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:54 pm

I'm inclined to agree on Brimaz if Jeskai becomes more popular. Right now besides Jeskai there are no real decks playing red removal, so Brimaz tends to die to the same spells Rabblemaster does while being harder to cast. I expect that to change though. He is definitely more flexible though since he's so good at playing defense and attacks midrange decks more successfully.

I think the ultimate fate of this archetype is to play more of a midrange game like the green decks while having access to more reach and flexible cards. Decks like that are where Brimaz really shines.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:02 pm

Ashcloud main is not where you want to be. Ive tested it for about 25 games, and its just too slow for the g1 you are trying to play, the same reason SBD was bad. Tapping out in the later turns of the game severely limits your lines of play and shifts you more towards a burn approach. The rabble red matchup (at least the one I have in my gauntlet, Khaos' list) is actually pretty bad game one, and I am running 3 arc lightning. Hordeling outburst is annoying as fuck, the added goblins + stoke/lightning strike kill our blockers easily.

Ideally, we want to be creating
the most streamlined and consistent deck for G1, admittingly (apparently "admittedly" is the correct word) I think Arc Lightning is pretty terrible in the midrange matchups, but winning G1 against aggro decks is just big game. I still think mono red and mono black are tough matchups postboard.

I like magma jet, but I never want two in my opening hand, and would prefer not to draw a second before turn 5/6.

I liked SOME of the thought Jacob Van Lunen had in his article today, but I think his assessment of what cards to side out are off (I'm not sure you need 4 magma spray). JSilv I think the two magma sprays should be magma jet, sometimes digging for lands is crucial, and a turn 3 magma jet after a turn 2 seeker is still nice (due to arc lightning being pretty shitty vs green, I have a 3/3 split between magma jet and arc). I love that seeker helps balance the life loss from pain lands, which I think are also another thing about the list that shows preference (
between pain lands, more basics/fetches, more scrys).

Here is my current list, I would like to reowork the mana base if I can get more fetches.

[deck]Purple Tempo[/deck]

Jace was great for me last night in testing, obviously a bit weaker vs aggro decks than chandra, but I'd argue he is
better than her in midrange matchups right now. Between his -3, and charm bounce, having two timewalkesque spells is very powerful when you are trying to get a rabble master to swing in, or setup a big sarkhan swing next turn. I could honestly see cutting chandra, as I am not sure what she really offers game one (when compared to what an extra slot could do for problem matchups in Game 1)

I am not sure if I want banishing light in the main yet, I could see how it would be very strong. I would love to hear more about any testing you have Jsilv with Phoenix. Is it really THAT good vs midrange decks, better than just playing a shitload of disdainful strokes and harness by force?
So I am a little confused.

You say Phoenix is too slow because you have to tap out turn 4+ for him, yet you run 2 4-mana planeswalkers in Jace and Chandra that take the Phoenix spot. I don't see how your argument doesnt work both ways. Since you have him in your sideboard, what are
you bringing him in for? Green?

Additionally, I dont think straining the mana for Jace is worth it, at all.

He sucks against aggro game 1 , Chandra is way better.

You say he time-walks them if they play a big guy and you bounce it but Chandra +1 stops it from blocking anyways so its just as good for getting your guys through.
The card draw is also probably better than Jace since you actually get the card- although it could be worse since no selection.

Additionally-, I see some anti-synergy between Arc and Seeker because it is a sorcery and Seeker is at his best when you can cast instants or they have to respect it and you get in damage without having to pump. Searing Blood could be an option.

Phoenix does not do anything for me in G1 the turn he comes down. Both Chandra and Jace do.

I don't think the mana is strained much trying to play jace that bad, especially considering the blue spells out of the board. Playing 3-4 flooded strands, with 4 reefs, 3-4 temple + tri
land, I wasn't having trouble casting jace on turn 4 if I ever needed to, not to mention the easier it gets to cast on t5 or 6 (by turn 6 you have UU for dig anyway).

I would agree he is not great vs aggro in G1, however, I think chandra is only marginally better (by turn 4, you should of killed of their turn 1 or 2 play).

Jace is "better" at getting guys through bigger decks because he bounces your opponents play, forcing them to spend the next turn recommitting the threat (only bad vs rhino).

Rabblemaster into Jace into Sarkhan or mantis rider/burn is better than rabblemaster into chandra (chandra will be dying on the swingback, assuming polukranos), similar turn 5 play vs midrange decks in my opinion.

I don't think playing seeker and arc lightning lacks synergy at all. a Turn 3 arc lightning vs ANY aggro deck is big game. T2 seeker, into t3 arc lightning (clearing their 2 tapped/untapped cratures) and swinging for 3 life link is pretty damn good.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:21 pm

I'm thinking of something like this:

[Deck]
Creatures (12)
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Mantis Rider
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Ashcloud Phoenix

Spells (24)
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Suspension Field
4 Jeskai Charm
1 Arc Lightning
2 Banishing Light
4 Stoke the Flames
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker

Lands (24)
4 Shivan Reef
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Temple of Epiphany
3 Mystic Monastery
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Plains
[/deck]

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:33 pm

Answer my call; can you hear my voice? I hear you...

dpaine88 · Postby **dpaine88** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:22 pm

@ Purp --- quotes got too long.

Sure Phoenix doesn't do anything the turn he comes down, but you say G1 as if he magically does something when he comes down games 2 or 3? If he is in your board for green, and the meta is full of green, why isnt he maindeck? If he is in your board just for control...well there isnt a control deck yet so thats pointless. Even against aggro he will either trade twice or die to a removal spell yet still be able to block and trade off for a creature. Basically a 2 for 1 against aggro.

Phoenix also ends the game very quickly and is extremely resiliant and a mana sink. In a format fought on the ground, he should get in every turn. Also trades with Butcher if he becomes more popular and still comes back as a 2/2 morph.

Lets also keep in mind when comparing planeswalker effects that Chandra's is a +1 while Jace is a -3. The -3 better be more powerful than another 4drop walker's +1
ability. Is it that much better? I am not sure. Jace is also way easier to kill for them if they have another threat out or a burn spell. Chandra going to 5 will almost never die in this deck unless you are way behind because your opponent simply cant waste turns going after her while you are threatening their life total with burn spells. Oh and Chandra's does 1 dmg each time, lots of games come down to 1 life.

Mana-wise -- approx 12 sources of blue. I'd say that is certainly solid to get your color on time, much like the White in Boros Burn. However getting UU is a lot harder on 12 sources.

Obviously Arc Lightning is the best anti-aggro burn in the format. Its good with anything in that matchup. Facing down Courser for example, which is much more common it seems than aggro, Arc Lightning is terrible.

I don't want that scenario when everydeck should be built with beating Courser in mind or have it in the deck.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:44 pm

I am not saying he does anything the turn he comes down in G2/G3, however, I think the game I am trying to play is different...ie landing a disdainful stroke or morphing the phoenix on t3 if presented with it (I think phoenix is better vs Mardu/Junk than I do GREEN devo), or slowing the game down with a deflecting palm. I admitted Arc Lightning is weak vs Green (My game 1 vs green has felt pretty damn good, since they have no way to gain life, it's basically 3 mana deal 3, which is fine when racing G1). I am also not building a deck to beat the top 32 of the Indy open, I am beating a deck to beat the decks I expect to play at my LGS and States.

I am not saying my opinion is more right than yours, I am simply stating my opinions based on my playtesting (~120 games or so, not that this means much, but I think it at least shows I have reps). And sure Jace could be bad, but so far it has worked for me. There has never been
a situation where I drew it, and wished it was anything else. I can't say the same for Chandra. It is too early in the format to say X is better than Y. I think you could take 54/60 cards in the shell and still do well. Bottom line is a lot of decks just won't be prepared to deal with this strategy, and even though it was the open, it was an extremely small % of the metagame.

dpaine88 · Postby **dpaine88** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:47 pm

pretty interesting list from top8 of the 5k

Straight Boros Burn

[deck]
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Seeker of the Way
Creatures [12]
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Planeswalkers [1]
3 Arc Lightning
3 Chained to the Rocks
3 Deflecting Palm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
4 Stoke the Flames
Spells [25]
4 Battlefield Forge
11 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Wind-Scarred Crag
Lands [22]
SIDEBOARD
1 Arc Lightning
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Banishing Light
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Deflecting Palm
2 Erase
4 Hushwing Gryff
1 Suspension Field
[/deck]

dpaine88 · Postby **dpaine88** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:54 pm

I am not saying he does anything the turn he comes down in G2/G3, however, I think the game I am trying to play is different...ie landing a disdainful stroke or morphing the phoenix on t3 if presented with it (I think phoenix is better vs Mardu/Junk than I do GREEN devo), or slowing the game down with a deflecting palm. I admitted Arc Lightning is weak vs Green (My game 1 vs green has felt pretty damn good, since they have no way to gain life, it's basically 3 mana deal 3, which is fine when racing G1). I am also not building a deck to beat the top 32 of the Indy open, I am beating a deck to beat the decks I expect to play at my LGS and States.

I am not saying my opinion is more right than yours, I am simply stating my opinions based on my playtesting (~120
games or so, not that this means much, but I think it at least shows I have reps). And sure Jace could be bad, but so far it has worked for me. There has never been a situation where I drew it, and wished it was anything else. I can't say the same for Chandra. It is too early in the format to say X is better than Y. I think you could take 54/60 cards in the shell and still do well. Bottom line is a lot of decks just won't be prepared to deal with this strategy, and even though it was the open, it was an extremely small % of the metagame.

Fair enough, the SCG Open comes to my town in 2 or 3 weeks so that is what I am preparing for.

I will admit my testing is extremely limited but I feel as a burn player past 6 months I can have some decent judgement.

Just a heads up Junk does have Utter End which is great vs Phoenix.

I will try testing Jace out. I still think the mana is too hard to run him reliably turn 4 especially after not hitting UU for Dig till the later turns which
is fine but I want my 4 drop sooner.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:59 pm

I think in three weeks the metagame wont be 85% green midrange, or at least I hope not!

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:08 pm

It will be 95%

dpaine88 · Postby **dpaine88** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:12 pm

Yeah, I heard Patrick Sullivan saying a lot of good players chose green cause its obviously good and don't want to tip their hand for the Pro Tour.

Should be interesting to see how Pro Tour goes and then we can really have something to go from.

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:49 pm

Maybe he was saying that to throw people off the scent

amcfvieira · Postby **amcfvieira** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:23 pm

Everyday I like this deck (Jeskai Tempo/Burn) more.
I don't know if someone had post this article from CFB before:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... kai-tempo/

BiddingMaster · Postby **BiddingMaster** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:55 am

pretty interesting list from top8 of the 5k

Straight Boros Burn

[deck]
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Seeker of the Way
Creatures [12]
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Planeswalkers [1]
3 Arc Lightning
3 Chained to the Rocks
3 Deflecting Palm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
4 Stoke the Flames
Spells [25]
4 Battlefield Forge
11 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Wind-Scarred Crag
Lands [22]
SIDEBOARD
1 Arc Lightning
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Banishing Light
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Deflecting Palm
2 Erase
4 Hushwing Gryff
1 Suspension Field
[/deck]

im suprised its not running some number of coordinated assault. 2 seekers plus assault against aggro and they are
pretty much dead.

lol looks like what my deck is slowly turning into. I just like having the blue in the deck for certain cards like mantis rider which is aggro and cant be blocked easilly and having access to counters in the side for the grindy games that we are forced into. I like the idea of a boros aggro deck though and I have a list in the works but I dont think it has enough reach. Ive decided on my deck whether im going to play hushwings or not. ive taken three to the main and one to the side and moved the mindswipes to the side for control and mirror matches.

TBuzzsaw · Postby **TBuzzsaw** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:38 am

Is there still some way to make a Rabblemaster or Brimaz/Ephara Jeskai deck? For some reason the UWR colors has always been hard for me to put together.

I can't help but think Ephara is severely under the radar right now. This is my crappy rough draft for a starting point:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Ephara, God of the Polis

Spells
3 Stoke the Flames
2 Banishing Light
2 Spear of Heliod
3 Jeskai Charm
4 Raise the Alarm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet

24 lands
[/deck]

Whole · Postby **Whole** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:41 am

When i first started playing & brewing UWR decks similar to the ones discussed in this thread (more or less after Mantis Rider was spoiled), I was trying her out as a 1 and 2 of. She is simply win-more. The deck isn't very creature dense, and you typically want to tap out for creatures asap than tap out for a do-nothing, then tap out again for a creature...that's very bad for a deck that wants to play mostly instant speed. She was fine for longer grindy games, but then I always noted that Keranos would've been way better in that scenario. The Rabblemaster & Brimaz interactions are cute, but they'll kill Rabble on the spot if they see Ephara coming...and they usually just kill him asap anyway. And if you're attacking with Brimaz, you're typically winning.

Dies to Removal

(POST ROTATION) JESKAI BURN

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