R/b Aggro aka "Dos Rakis"

[Pedros]

So basicly which is better: Mono Black Agro or Br - heavier B version. It runs similar creatures and spells.

[Pedros]

Btw another Black agro deck with a splash, this time with blue:

http://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments ... ro_primer/

When release events will hit the mtgo I will try this out, as I really enjoyed playing seer in Ravnica block constructed. He seams really good right now, as it isnt killed by bile blight, ultimate price, doomblade, decay, lightning strike.

[LaZerBurn]

Great feedback Longtoe I'm very interested in working further on the deck - I think it can reliably beat B, UW and GR (which is everywhere and a very difficult match up for the heavy Burn lists) with MonoU being slightly harder.

You said you felt the B version I posted was a bit clunky, can you elaborate on that? How vital is Thoughtseize and HDF? Would you run Phoenix over Herald?

For ease of reference this is the B heavy list of mine you played (played by Longtoe with 2 LBZ 2 Herald split in MD and +1 Whip +1 LBZ SB)

LaZer's Another Br Aggro List

---

[deck=LaZer's Another Br Aggro List ]Lands 24
4 Mountain
8 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple Of Malice
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 18
4 Rakdos
Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Herald of Torment
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 18
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Dreadbore
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall

Sideboard 15
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
4 Skullcrack[/deck]

And this is MDU's Burn centric build (played by Longtoe with +1 Whip +1 Fated Conflagration -2 Chandra in the SB)

MDU's Nothing Cute Br Aggro

---

[deck=MDU's Nothing Cute Br Aggro]Lands 24
8 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple Of Malice
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 20
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 16
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
3 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price

Sideboard 15
1 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
4 Skullcrack[/deck]

I'
m liking the idea of something like this which now I look at it is a later verison of MDU's with Thoughtseize in place of Shock You can likely get away with less Skullcrack if you're running Thoughtseize, for Whip or Wings maybe? Other options include dropping a Dragon and a land for 2 Shocks, which might be better with the Phoenix ...

[deck=MDU's Nothing Cute RB Aggro plus Thoughtseize]
Lands 24
8 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple Of Malice
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 20
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 16
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Thoughtseize
2 Dreadbore
2 Hero's Downfall

Sideboard 15
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
4 Skullcrack
[/deck]
Feedback and thoughts most welcome as I'm trying to get as much data as possible before
I rush off and spend 85 tix on FWP's, TS's, Herald's, LBZ's, HDF's and Temples on MTGO

[Longtoe]

Lazerburn, In your original version the HDF is honestly too much mana as a 4 of. I feel like it constrained my ability to be aggressive. Dreadbore is honestly a better option overall or even an ultimate price or two. I also would advocate the full compliment of herald of torment and leave the LBZ to the board unless you knew the field was going to be full of R/G monsters. I am sorry I am an idiot and don't know how to make the deck list things if someone teaches me, the beauty of my posts would improve. In MDU list there were no chandras in my board whip and fated conflag. In your list there was a whip plus extra zombie. I am huge fan of whip if we are going to have large creatures as our finishers, it puts immense pressure on our opponents. The only thing I would change in your new very sweet list lazer is cut back on two HDF. Add either Ultimate price, shock, or mizzium mortar.

[Valdarith]

I have everything but the BNG cards on MODO for my deck. I'll be developing this online while I play Gr in paper. Will probably even stream it.

[LaZerBurn]

Thanks for the feedback LT I tried to include the tweaks you'd made to the original lists, I've edited them so I hope it made sense now

Moving forward it looks like [card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card] over Herald Of Torment and a mix of Thoughtseize, Dreadbore, Ultimate Price and Shock. I may have to run a single [card]Hero's Downfall[/card] because I like it so much As I type I like 4 TS, 2 DB, 1 UP, 1 HDF but I want Shocks too Maybe -1 land -1 SBD? Help MDU!

I'm not wild about the card but I think there's room for at least one Whip Of Erebos over a Skullcrack in the SB which I know will please dauntless!

[magicdownunder]

My Thoughts:

* Mono-Black is MANY times better with the discard approach, unlike Rb the usual Mono-Black list runs 8 creatures which require time until they explode (Rat + Seer) - those 8 creatures also generate CA via Draw or turning your crap into gold.

I strongly believe you need CA to take advantage of discard, which is why I don't think it suits Rb unless you get a body attached too it.

* Rb however make up for CA via reach and individually strong cards

Which is better? B Aggro app. has an excellent MU vs Bx Devotion, Ux Devotion, UWx Control and Gr Devotion which are the top list in the meta game but is weaker against BBV, Small Aggro and Red but since these are not common in the top tables B Aggro would seem to be the better choice going into a large event (if the above is true, I havn't tried B Aggro so i don't know).

Rb in theory has a decent game vs everything (imo, not an excellent game but a
rounded game) it does however suffer from Top-Deck issues which Malice, Chandra/Whip and MJ can Address - thus if my theory is correct Rb is better for MODO or GPT and PTQ where the meta is diverse.

I don't think Gr is a horrible MU but if we want discard in Rb I would run this:

[deck=MDU's Rb Aggro]Lands 24
6 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple Of Malice
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 21
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Lifebane Zombie
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 15
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock
2 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price
1 Hero's Downfall

Sideboard 15
2 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
4 Skullcrack[/deck]

[LaZerBurn]

Thank you

[amcfvieira]

You use Flame-Wreathed Phoenix in sideboard against what MU?

[MattT]

MattT --- How's your UW control matchup with that list?

My Temple of Malices should arrive this weekend, looking forward to sleeving them up!

It´s like it was before BNG: good because not much has changed there. T4 Spiteful on a T3 Phoenix is quite silly vs them.

So, I´m bascially where MDU is, but trying Spiteful Returned instead of Cackler and liking it.

[Pedros]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=190106#p190106:1os6aegf]magicdownunder » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:59 am[/url:1os6aegf]":1os6aegf]My Thoughts:

* Mono-Black is MANY times better with the discard approach, unlike Rb the usual Mono-Black list runs 8 creatures which require time until they explode (Rat + Seer) - those 8 creatures also generate CA via Draw or turning your crap into gold.

I strongly believe you need CA to take advantage of discard, which is why I don't think it suits Rb unless you get a body attached too it.

* Rb however make up for CA via reach and individually strong cards

Which is better? B Aggro app. has an excellent MU vs Bx Devotion, Ux Devotion, UWx Control and Gr Devotion which are the top list in the meta game but is weaker against BBV, Small Aggro and Red but since these are not common in the top tables B Aggro would seem to be the better choice going into
a large event (if the above is true, I havn't tried B Aggro so i don't know).

Rb in theory has a decent game vs everything (imo, not an excellent game but a rounded game) it does however suffer from Top-Deck issues which Malice, Chandra/Whip and MJ can Address - thus if my theory is correct Rb is better for MODO or GPT and PTQ where the meta is diverse.

I don't think Gr is a horrible MU but if we want discard in Rb I would run this:

[deck=MDU's Rb Aggro]Lands 24
6 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple Of Malice
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 21
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Lifebane Zombie
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 15
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock
2 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price
1 Hero's Downfall

Sideboard 15
2 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
4 Skullcrack[/deck][/quote:1os6aegf]

I agree with everything you said, especially about black better against
mayor decks but looses if u play against a lot of rogue/red decks. I like the inclusion of lifebane zombie as a evasive beater that gives you info/card advantage. One thing I dont understand is lack of chandra, but I can understand it.

I guess new phoenix is against green and white decks? Also vs red that doesnt have access for chain to the rocks? If so is it so much better that hereald of torment? They do similar things (herald has pseudo haste and also recursion when bestowed, plus you control option you want).

I agree about discard in this deck, when I played dos packis before at first i had seizes and then discarded them as hey didnt do enough. In this deck you dont need to resolve certain thread, as most are good on their own, and later in the game topdecked seizes are only good if u have access to pack rat, without it they are not so good.

Also like going back to skullcracks, however I dont understand why you like them here and not in wr.

[LaZerBurn]

Thanks HUGELY for the info on Thoughtseize Pedros, saved me 20 tix to try them out Once Temples drop to a reasonable price on MTGO I'll start from here with my list

LBZ acquired, Temples falling steadily, under 4 tix now FWP remain strangely high but I'm sure it's only a matter of time

[magicdownunder]

[deck]RB Aggro[/deck]
I finally built the list and went 3-0 during the SE - GAH!! I dislike the headaches ultimate and doom-blade causes me, almost want to run MOAR HDF!!

I'll up the RB land count and just run 2 HDF and 3 DB + 3 Shock, making all my spells strong in every MU including control

[LaZerBurn]

Cool! I love HDF You dropping Vaults for GG for them?

I prefer this to RWx Burn, thoughts?

[magicdownunder]

Update:

[deck=MDU's Rb Aggro]Lands 24
7 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple Of Malice
3 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 20
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 16
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
3 Dreadbore
2 Hero's Downfall

Sideboard 15
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
4 Skullcrack[/deck]

Flame-Wreathed Phoenix is just like Vexing Devil... which is good because I like Vexing Devil .

I got another 3-0 thrashing Grx I think I found the list i'm taking to MOCS1

[redthirst]

Flame-Wreathed Phoenix is just like Vexing Devil...

Vomit... everywhere.

I like the list, though, so good luck!

[Purp]

I too have been playing RB Aggro the past couple days. I have been playing it because it can kill obzedat. Going to be tuning this list for the Atlanta Open on March 1st. I really did not like the burn list, it just felt so easy to fall behind with. However, this list does scare me in an Open setting because I don't think it will have much game against Burn in G1 or Post board without Whips.

[LaZerBurn]

Cards acquired, deck up and running on MTGO I am now settling down for a happy 3 months playing this, Modern Burn (with maybe some St Burn if the meta becomes more favourable)

[RaidaTheBlade]

I like the look of the list... My only real thoughts are that I'd of course prefer at least one more mutavault, and maybe one more mortar somewhere in the 75.

B/W is poised to see a lot of play, and having one more mortar would make that a bit more comfortable. We have creatures that can trade like dragon and f-w phoenix, but they have kill spills, so...


But that's what, wanting a difference of 2 cards out of the 75? I'd say that the list looks pretty well rounded and powerful.


Ps: What's up with the lifebane zombies? Is g/w giving you that much trouble? Or is it also brought in vs other things? (maybe control for a beater, or u/x cause it trades with master?)

[Purp]

Lifebane is for GR and UW

[LaZerBurn]

Raida - if you want another Mortars run 3 in the SB and 3 Skullcrack

[magicdownunder]

I too have been playing RB Aggro the past couple days. I have been playing it because it can kill obzedat. Going to be tuning this list for the Atlanta Open on March 1st. I really did not like the burn list, it just felt so easy to fall behind with. However, this list does scare me in an Open setting because I don't think it will have much game against Burn in G1 or Post board without Whips.

I actually took apart two Burn list during my SE runs.

@Raida:

Playing 1 more vault would be much too greedy (playing two vaults is already greedy) since I'm already forcing [mana]BB[/mana] and [mana]RR[/mana] into the same build already.

Lifebane Zombie is for Esper Aggro, Gr, UW, BW, Ux
and Wx - its like having another flyer since Non-Black builds can't deal with it (which also happens to peak and rip W/G creature threats).

Cutting 1 SkullCrack for 1 Mizzium Mortars is fine, though holding back on your burns would also do the same job (whilst potentially killing your Opp.)

[Deht]

I pulled LBZ's in to the sideboard in my list after my last outing was 3 G/R lists and 1 GW Aggro list. Next outing I snagged two Brimazes (Brimazii?) against the same GW Aggro player, he was pretty tilted.

What are you siding out when bringing in the Lifebane Zombies?

[LaZerBurn]

Playing 1 more vault would be much too greedy (playing two vaults is already greedy) since I'm already forcing [mana]BB[/mana] and [mana]RR[/mana] into the same build already.

I particularly like how greedy the list is

[LP, of the Fires]

MDU's list reminds me of RB zombies from last season: an abortion of a manabase, but all your cards are powerful so you don't care.

[magicdownunder]

MDU's list reminds me of RB zombies from last season: an abortion of a manabase, but all your cards are powerful so you don't care.

I stopped playing standard once Innistrad rolled in (I came back after it rotated ) so I missed the whole RB Zombies and greedy Manabase period of old.

Though I do agree the mana base is quite greedy - I think it would run much smoother if I just cut one vaults for another Rakdos Guildgate, but the vaults are so useful once you go into full control mode esp. against instant speed removal lite builds like Rx Devotion, Wx and Ux Devotion.

On that note I went 3-0 again beating Bx Devotion, Ux Devotion and Naya Control (
piloted by other streamer - ghostlyflow aka Alex aka goldfire07) didn't drop a single match so it was all 2-0, 2-0, 2-0.

[photodyer]

I like BR aggro in concept, but the thought of playing 7-8 CIPT lands in an aggro deck makes my throat constrict and my eye twitch. I absolutely hated playing the for gates we had in Nuwen's list originally because they created so many awkward hands...I simply can't get enthused about it.

[Deht]

Got half of my Temples of Malice today finally, waiting on the other two!

On that note I went 3-0 again beating Bx Devotion, Ux Devotion and Naya Control (piloted by other streamer - ghostloft aka Alex aka goldfire07) didn't drop a single match so it was all 2-0, 2-0, 2-0.

I was watching ghostlyflow's stream earlier --- funny that you played against him... Here's a link to the match http://www.twitch.tv/ghostlyflow/b/504563473 --- starts around 1:58:00, he's playing two matches at the same time, so there is switching back and forth.

[enmitee]

I too have been playing RB Aggro the past couple days. I have been playing it because it can kill obzedat. Going to be tuning this list for the Atlanta Open on March 1st. I really did not like the burn list, it just felt so easy to fall behind with. However, this list does scare me in an Open setting because I don't think it will have much game against Burn in G1 or Post board without Whips.

I actually took apart two Burn list during my SE runs.

@Raida:

Playing 1 more vault would be much too greedy (playing two vaults is already greedy) since I'm already forcing [mana]
BB[/mana] and [mana]RR[/mana] into the same build already.

Lifebane Zombie is for Esper Aggro, Gr, UW, BW, Ux and Wx - its like having another flyer since Non-Black builds can't deal with it (which also happens to peak and rip W/G creature threats).

Cutting 1 SkullCrack for 1 Mizzium Mortars is fine, though holding back on your burns would also do the same job (whilst potentially killing your Opp.)

Against smaller creature decks, (Esper, WG/R) what would you side out for LBZ's? Loving the list btw.

[magicdownunder]

@Longtoe:

How did testing Chandra, Pyromaster over Flame-Wreathed Phoenix go? Chandra does seem better against most things except the Gx MU do you think its worth the exchange?

@enmitee:

The boarding plan is similar in what I do with my Boros Aggro build, I don't really want to post it or pm it though since I need something to encourage people to watch my videos .

@Deht:

Thanks for the link, gah I boarded wrong against him - I should have brought in all my Doom Blades - srs. did not expect the Angel

[hoeiberg]

The boarding plan is similar in what I do with my Boros Aggro build, I don't really want to post it or pm it though since I need something to encourage people to watch my videos .

That's fair. You have any vidoes with this build yet? I'm really looking forward to seeing it in action

[Pedros]

I am also interested which was better in New Phoenix vs Chandra. Both have ups and downs. And I am looking forward to play this deck.

Btw here is a link: http://themeadery.org/blogs/348/338/the-standard-quo

Anyone here is Matthew Stevens?

hat about Fated Conflaglation slot in sb? Worth it? I see it as an additional answer vs blood baron while killing planeswalkers and obzedats in addition, but if only for Barons isnt CHandra's Outrage better if we want stuff other than mortars?

MDU can you write short sb guide?

[Purp]

---

Tournament Report for the TCG 5K Flint Michigan with MDU Rbfliers only differences from his list were one whip of erebos in board and one fated conflagaration in board
Round 1 RW Burn (Appeared to be Brad Nelson's List) 2-1 The matchup isn't particularly difficult if you can con the burn player into killing your creatures. Resolved Whip game 3 easy victory
Round 2 RW Devotion- Game one he rick rolled me with a beautiful use of emily to trigger shrine. Game 2 He punted because he missed purphoros triggers I capitalized and won the game. Game 3 had plenty of removal and finished him off with exava and new phoenix
Round 3 RW Devotion (this player made top - 2-0 He did what all RW devotion decks do sometimes play like a shitty version of RDW. he did this for two straight games
Round 4 RG Monsters (This player made top - 0-2 Neither game too memorable other than I was in a decent race game 1 but he landed two coursers, Kill that thing on site. Game two stuck on 3 lands
Round 5 mono black devotion 2-0 you play this matchup exactly like the R/W aggro decks MDU had be very aggressive and burn them out
Round 6 Bant Flash- 2-0 You out class most of his creatures with your fatties. He did run Avent of the Wurm and the odd flash creature where you gain life for each card draw. He was on the back foot most games.
Round 7 GW aggro- 0-2 I was the saddest panda this match. Game 1 ton of removal Killed about 7-8 creatures and drew one spike jester all game. Game 2- mana flooded, it happens
Round 8 RB midrange/control- 2-0 I was too fast
for this deck. I did not see any evidence of life gain. he played an interested card choice of Mogis main.
Round 9 GR (Team Perfect Storm member) GR Monsters- 2-1 Game 1 he mulled to 6. I just out raced and killed any fatty he had. Game 2- Very good roll out for him. I was stuck on 3 mana. Game 3- Was a thing of beauty. to finish the game he was at 10. I had Double shock in hand and one mutavault(for creatures) in play. We know what I topdecked, Mouthbreather dragon.
Final Standing a big kick in the junk, 9th out nearly 300 players. The only pro lurking at the event was Raymond Perez Jr. who ended up with a game loss at the tournament for tardiness. Decent tournament. I like the deck. I would cut the fated conflagaration for 2nd whip. The meta appeared to be at the tournament VERY high RG monsters like 30% of field. Control variants were probably 2nd. Mono black was 3rd for present. RW devotion 4th for frequency. If the meta continues as it, I would recommend a black heavier
build as Thoughtseize and lifebane makes the RG monster matchup comical. The reach with the red burn is mandatory as well and I think with further testing we can come to a very good compromise of black cards with taking advantage of the great burn available to us in the format.

@Pedors - I believe this is him

[magicdownunder]

Matthew Stevens should be Longtoe, in regards to the Manabase - I'm being to think its better just to cut the 1 drops (they seems to make sequencing T2-3 difficult) upping the land 25 running an extra Dragon then tossing in two random cards like MD LBZ or Whip.

I'll keep trying my current version for now, but if the based annoys me enough the above changes is what I'll do.

@Pedros: I won't be posing SB guides, since I want to encourage people to watch my videos and help me earn some extra cash (its not much but it helps).

@hoeiberg: no videos yet, I'll post them next week - though I was on twitch which two other steamers so if you can find them you'll see the list beating them.

[enmitee]

Matthew Stevens should be Longtoe, in regards to the Manabase - I'm being to think its better just to cut the 1 drops (they seems to make sequencing T2-3 difficult) upping the land 25 running an extra Dragon then tossing in two random cards like MD LBZ or Whip.

I'll keep trying my current version for now, but if the based annoys me enough the above changes is what I'll do.

@Pedros: I won't be posing SB guides, since I want to encourage people to watch my videos and help me earn some extra cash (its not much but it helps).

@hoeiberg: no videos yet, I'll post them next week - though I was on twitch which two other steamers so if you can find them you'll see the list beating them.

Heya MDU, I went out with your list tonight, while
I'm loving the deck as a whole. It seems that I pretty much blanked to witchstalkers, and mizzium is a tad slow when they get an unflinching courage on it post SB. Do you think devour flesh over doom blades? And I'm not sure if mizziums are going to do it for me, was thinking AotG in place of it.

[magicdownunder]

I disregard the Hexproof MU all together (pray not to face it ) - if its a large part of your meta I really couldn't recommend playing Rb and would suggest Control or Bx Devotion.

That said between Devour and Anger, I'll run Anger though I'm not sure how I feel about cutting Doom Blades...

[LaZerBurn]

And I am looking forward to play this deck.

Oh good I hope you like playing it, will be good to have your input

[Pedros]

Matthew Stevens should be Longtoe, in regards to the Manabase - I'm being to think its better just to cut the 1 drops (they seems to make sequencing T2-3 difficult) upping the land 25 running an extra Dragon then tossing in two random cards like MD LBZ or Whip.

I'll keep trying my current version for now, but if the based annoys me enough the above changes is what I'll do.

@Pedros: I won't be posing SB guides, since I want to encourage people to watch my videos and help me earn some extra cash (its not much but it helps).

@hoeiberg: no videos yet, I'll post them next week - though I was on twitch which two other steamers so if you can find them you'll see the list beating them.

Dauntless is running heavier red version without 1
drops -> he plays more ash zealots. More consistent imo, no double black spells. Spot removal in dreadbores and ultimate prices, we discussed fated conflaglation in sb for obzedats, planeswalkers, barons, hasty dragons etc (plus it is quite good vs control with dreadbores, as then you have 6 answers for planeswalkers/brimaz/angel). More consistent manabase allows use of 4 mutavaults which I like, plus with 20 red sources (no swamps at all, 12 duals) it is possible to play reckoners vs agro if needed.

[Purp]

I am not sure if I can get behind cutting cacklers. The combo of them into Jester is usually a victory. I have not had too much trouble being able to cast them on turn 1. My only issue with them is that with running only 4 1 drops, you don't always see them in your opening hand, which makes them terrible top decks as the game goes on.

[magicdownunder]

They do have haste if Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch is online so its not 100% horrible I'm working on improving the manabase since I also agree on that sequence being very powerful.

@Pedros: If I was going to focus on a mainly red list running Ultimate price/Doom Blade Terror effects with no LBZ or Spike Jester I would just run Rw.