Primer: R/w/x Aggro

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:36 am

Yeah, I've never seen anyone play esper humans in paper, so meta call I suppose.

NerdBoyWonder · Postby **NerdBoyWonder** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:39 am

Looking at MDU's and Johnny's latest builds. Pretty much it comes down to Helix in the mainboard over Firedrink Satyr.

My question is why? Is helix that needed? Is the satyr just that not well positioned?

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:29 am

Firstly, well done Longtoe we now have three DtR members in the finals - I found it amusing that all the Bx and Control players manage to dodge you.

@NerdBoyWonder: Johnny MD is the original list which which I built to resurrect this thread turning it from Sledgehammer into Aggro-Control, its a very strong build designed to beat Bx Devotion and Control (at the small sacrificial of the aggro MU G1) that said johnny did add some spicy new SB'ing tech

.

Its fairly debatable about the correct number of 1-drops since they're value is only on T1-3, after T3 each time to hit them they become a dead draw - with 6 1-drops you lower your chances of hitting a 1-drop on T1 by 11%, and gain either Selfies or Helixs which is a decent to solid top-deck in every MU (unlike the 2/1 which may kill you vs Ux and Rx Devotion).
If you KNOW your meta is Bx and Control infested take the staple 60 if not tinker with it.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:50 am

Last Time

Still
maintaining my 100% finish ratio, here is my:

Standard Elimination Event 6602274 Report
Standard Elimination R1 Boros Aggro vs Boros Aggro Event 6602274 <-- vs rujasu a sally mod
Standard Elimination R2 Boros Aggro vs Esper Control Event 6602274
Standard Elimination R3 Boros Aggro vs Wb Humansl Event 6602274

I also got another 3-0 today vs UW Control (top200 player) it was a 33 minute torture fest, Rw Devotion and a funny Bx Devotion game where I tilt early on and proceed too play bad, though i somehow top
deck an assemble which cause him to early rage quit.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:09 am

Won Mikawa Magic Convention Open today.

Went 6-0 (12-1). There were 30 players.

Played against:

Dega Burn (2-0)
Br Control (2-0)
WR Midrange (2-1) I mana-screwed and got stuck on two in spite of scrying 3x.
GW Aggro (2-0)
Boss Sligh (2-0)
Mono Black (2-0)

I was the only undefeated player. Feeling pretty good about my PTQ tomorrow.

DerWille · Postby **DerWille** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:55 am

Congrats Johnny_Spike. Good luck at your qualifier.

I'm not running your exact list, but my Dega Burn match up feels the shakiest. It's so swingy. Sometimes I play cards and they can't do anything about it and sometimes I get burned out before I can do anything about it. Probably need more dragons main board to fix that.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:10 pm

I'm considering moving away from Young Pyromancer now that the meta is starting to adjust to him. Here's a list I'm thinking of going with.

[deck]
Creatures (20)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Skynight Legionnaire

Spells (18)
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Boros Charm
2 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (22)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate
4 Mutavault
8 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Last Breath
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Skullcrack
1 Boros Charm
2 Peak Eruption
[/deck]

Note: MDU told me to post this here. Don't be mad because it doesnt have 25 lands.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:53 pm

Note: MDU told me to post this here. Don't be mad because it doesnt have 25 lands.

Or Dragons? lol

Does not belong here, but I don't imagine there is a better place. I had the same dilemma for a while.

More importantly, you are more than welcome here, as long as you don't mind us telling you to add dragons

Welcome aboard!

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:55 pm

I like it, it lower the curves and has MD Boros charm to squeeze in quick wins

, but you really need some Mizzium Mortars to get past those annoying SBD.

@J_S: keep mind this thread was originally just for the silly sledgehammer build, I think anything without YP or 1000 burns and is Rw belongs here.

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:58 pm

Yep, I like the lowering of the curve too - so much room for spells with 22 land

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:07 pm

I like it, it lower the curves and has MD Boros charm to squeeze in quick wins , but you really need some Mizzium Mortars to get past those annoying SBD.

@J_S: keep mind this thread was originally just for the silly sledgehammer build, I think anything without YP or 1000 burns and is Rw belongs here.

I started this thread for the Adrian Sullivan-esque 4x Dragon lists (hence why I named it Big Boros).

The defining characteristic of Pyro Red / Boros is YP$. The Defining characteristic of Big Boros is 3+ Dragons.

Splitting hairs. More importantly, I like Val a lot. He's a great asset to our team.

I'm fine with it being here,
since there isn't a better place for it and that is what I was trying to convey. Ages ago I wanted to just make a Boros Aggro thread if you remember

I don't want to do it now, since we more or less have an optimized main deck.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:00 pm

I've thought about moving a couple of Mizzium Mortars to the maindeck. We want to avoid having more than four dead cards in the UWx matchup, so I'd want to cut one Chained. Flames of the Firebrand at least takes care of Master tokens so not having three Chained maindeck wouldn't be a huge loss here. That leaves one card to cut for the second Mortars and it's not immediately obvious to me what to cut. Maybe a Skynight? That would lower my dependence on white a bit in game one while simultaneously lowering my curve.

Pedros · Postby **Pedros** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:05 pm

To be honest my recent Boros Tokens list fits better this thread than Pyro red thread, same as Valdarith's list fits better Pyro / RDW thread. How does his list fits big boros and you MDU said I should post it in Pyro just because I run 4 pyromancers and even higher curve than you run in your current deck?

Shouldnt we change threads to disscuss lists based on curve and mana?

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:09 pm

Post where you like. I won't give you flack. Can't say the same about certain mods over there lol.

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:23 pm

You're a good guy J_S, it's a pleasure to have met you

And I know it's w-a-y off topic but I really

my new sig

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:51 pm

Thanks Lazer. Happy to work on this stuff with you too.

Me too. It's awesome.

Khaospawn · Postby **Khaospawn** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:07 pm

Congrats on your win, JS!

Jack · Postby **Jack** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:27 pm

Burn 'em down, Johnny.

dauntless268 · Postby **dauntless268** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:22 am

After going 3-2 and 2-3 with PyroHelix, I finally managed to qualify for the Champs (4-1) with a slightly modified version of MDU's current list:

[deck] Warleader Boros[/deck]

Beat Mono Black Devotion 3 times and Esper Midrange, lost to Burn (ironically, the one deck where this version is clearly better than the one with 8 1-drops)

Really happy with the deck and slightly extravagant sideboard choice,
although admittedly slanted towards beating MonoB, which really runs rampant in the CQ (think over 50% of all my matches). I haven't missed Assemble.

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:44 am

Congrats

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:01 am

Now we have 4 DtR members in Champ Finals

just be warned dauntless268 a fair number of Bg Devotion won the CQ as well, so running Boros Charm to protect your chains is quite important.

To be honest my recent Boros Tokens list fits better this thread than Pyro red thread

Yep, I changed my mind over night since I stopped believing that YP had a huge role in that SCG Token list - Rw Control is fine here as well

P.S. Naya Token went 5-0 (a slightly unique version though, no elephants) beating everything during a CQ (Bx, Control and Esper Aggro)... maybe we should start a new thread in
the control section.

Pedros · Postby **Pedros** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:55 am

No decklists yet from 11+ on daily mtg, so I dont really know what you are talking about, however something similar to boros control (naya as it seems good vs a field) is my 1st choice for CQ.

I have problem of me attending btw, need to go on saturday from 8 to ~15-16 European time out of home. Might ask friend to play first round for me ;/

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:06 am

Variance FTL. 3-2 going into R6

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:12 am

Variance FTL. 3-2 going into R6

Darn...

Last Time

Standard Elimination Event 6606548 Report
Standard Elimination R1 Boros Aggro vs UW Control Event 6606548
Standard Elimination R2 Boros Aggro vs Boros Devotion Event 6606548
Standard Elimination R3 Boros Aggro vs Bx Devotion Event 6606548

I won another SE 3-0 (finally have footage of a game vs Esper Aggro) which i'll post tomorrow, I've notice I've been out of my groove as of late making
some really odd calls / misplays which I just barely pull myself out from.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:13 am

4-3 going into final round. Played vs esper humans for the first time (twice) srsly, fuck that deck. It is so bad, how does it not beat itself? Arrrg!

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:10 am

4-4. Played esper humans in the final round.

That deck makes me want to sell all my cards and never play magic again.

Safe to say it's a pretty fucking bad match up.

Other loss was to mono-u because 15 lands in game 1 (+3 I scry'd to the bottom) and mull to 5 game two.

Beat RW Devo, Naya Hexproof, and UW x2.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:21 am

Esper Aggro (Esper Human) is a very awkward MU making it hard to board against, its not as horrible as it seem once you get use to them (like the Ux Devotion MU) I like to assume the 'burn' + flyer role in this MU, thus taking damage and just pointing everything I can at face.

dauntless268 · Postby **dauntless268** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:37 am

Sorry to hear that it didn't go so well, Johnny Spike - you're a great contributor to this thread so I want you to succeed

!

As for the Esper Aggro/Midrange matchup, I had a discussion with LaZerBurn online about SBing here after my last round. I agree it's a difficult matchup and - at least for me - a not easy "who's the beatdown" question...

In my match I did actually the same as MDU now suggests and go burn/all-in (in my case In: 4 Skullcrack, 2 Minotaur Skullcleaver, Out: 4 Dragons + 2 Land) which I feel on the play is best. I was wondering if it might be worthwhile to switch to control role on the draw again as our odds of storming are much worse on the draw). I feel wear/Tear is slightly better than Glare here as it can hit Whip. On a sidenote, I was actually happy to have chosen Burn over Assemble in my SB - as it
allowed me to take the burn role more effectively in this matchup (not that I had thought about it before...

)

I'd really like to hear other people's thoughts on this MU.

@MDU and Boros Charm: Very good point, it actually never occurred to me that Boros Charm can act as a counter to Abrupt Decay / Golgari Charm (or Even Peak Eruption, if need be) - embarrassing, isn't it? I'm still not 100% sure if the tempo gain from Chains is enough and the lifegain prevention is more important, but I'll think about it. One thing that concerns me is that Boros Charm is another card that needs white Mana in the MonoB matchup while we SB out 2 white sources...

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:40 am

Obzedat + Whip is just impossible to deal with.

How are you boarding? I was trying to figure it out on the fly and it obviously didn't go well.

I have to remember, you have good days and you have bad days. Yesterday was a good day. Today was a bad one.

One of my buddies is playing in the Top 8. Happy for him, but I had to get out of there because I am just the saltiest cracker in Japan right now.

I'll be dropping an Assemble for a wear & tear in the future.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:57 am

I agree that Obzedat + Whip is pretty much GG - but haven't we dealt with this issue before? GWB Junk played the same card combination but we can still produce wins.

That said Esper Aggro (Esper Human) does control enough of the meta to warrant Wear // Tear, I would like to keep 1x Assemble since that just read "I Win vs Bx Devotion"...

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:37 pm

My buddy won the PTQ. I'm confident I could have too if I had his match ups. Trying not to be jealous / bitter.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:47 pm

I agree that Obzedat + Whip is pretty much GG - but haven't we dealt with this issue before? GWB Junk played the same card combination but we can still produce wins.

That said Esper Aggro (Esper Human) does control enough of the meta to warrant Wear // Tear, I would like to keep 1x Assemble since that just read "I Win vs Bx Devotion"...

Junk faded and went away. It was always almost auto-lose if they didn't mana-screw. It also didn't make the finals of a GP to convince people it's a good deck. Thing loses to itself 20% of the time because the mana is so terrible.

I will cut one assemble and run a 1/1 split of wear // tear and assemble.

When is new standard?

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:28 pm

Esper Aggro (Esper Human) is a very awkward MU making it hard to board against, its not as horrible as it seem once you get use to them (like the Ux Devotion MU) I like to assume the 'burn' + flyer role in this MU, thus taking damage and just pointing everything I can at face.

While I agree with everyone that Esper Aggro is an awkward match up I think MDU is spot on here. When I first played MonoU I remember losing 5 2-man's in a row to the deck

At the time I thought the match was an auto loss but over time I've learnt how to play better against them and also learned to recognise when they just have the nuts and you have to chalk it up to variance. I think
Esper is the same. Whip into Obzedat is harsh but they don't always get it, their mana base is bad and we have our own auto win draws too

That said what do we think is the best SB plan against them? My first reaction was to take out the 1 drops but dauntless made some interesting points about leaving them in on the play so I'd like to consider this option too.

SB Options I realise that due to MB variances these are not applicable to us all but I wanted to have all the potential options up for discussion

Chains - always good, especially against Necromancer and DD.

Mortars - good PB as they bring in BB (I assume for DD?) and with 25 land O/Ling Mortars is a real, and often game winning, option.

Glare - takes out a lot of their team - Soldier, Skyknight, Sovereign and DSphere too.

Boros Charm - 4 to
the dome, recurs Phoenix and protects against Verdict and spot removal.

Wear - kills Whip and DSphere but is very reactive and has more potential to be a dead draw.

Helix - 4 to the dome and can kill creatures but I think the lower casting cost and protection makes Boros Charm a better option.

Skullcrack - buys us a turn if they get BB/Whip/Obz online and fits in with the flying/to the dome strategy MDU proposes. There may not be room but I think this is worth considering, especially as it is a lot of our SB's already.

Last Breath - deals with Necromancer but even with Dragons the 4 life is likely prohibitive.

Minotaur Skullcleaver - dauntless tech for the aggro strategy (and MonoB) - I've not tried it but it increases the chances of us curving out and 4 damage on T3 is always nice. Worth considering if taking the aggro route.

Reckoner - can lock up the ground but Soldier laughs at him and he dies to both spot removal and DSphere, not a good call here.

Based on this I'd say our best
option is to bring in

+1 Chains
+1 Mortars
+2 Boros Charm
+2 Glare/Wear - Glare may be a better SB choice overall as it has wider applications against the rest of the field but the option to have a Wear in my hand for the Whip is tempting ... I do think that if we think Whip requires Wear we need to run 2 otherwise the % chance of having it in hand is too low. If we do that though we increase the chance of having a dead draw. It may be that we just accept if they hit Whip/Obz it's likely GG.

Strategy - Aggro or Control ?
Accepted wisdom would seem to favour taking out the 1 drops and I've done this every time I've faced them so far. (I'm about 50/50 against them over about 10 matches, which surprises me given my recent results!) You can still curve out with Ash and Phoenix into Dragon and just run them over and I think you also get a better long game. Keeping the 1 drops in is a viable option though and dauntless won his match last night by using this strategy,
dropping the Dragons, lowering the curve and bringing in Minotaur Skullcleaver. I'm still in favour of dropping them but I'd be interested to hear everyone else's thoughts

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:12 pm

This is a crazy thought, but could frostburn wierd replace ash zealot?

@JS - what was your buddy playing?

I too have a PTQ this weekend, and a Super IQ on sunday and am not sure what to play. I played PyroDragons to a top8 finish this past weekend, but got completly wrecked by an esper deck packing Last Breath and Devour Flesh in the MD. Probably going to play Big Boros, but I will def be putting Wear//Tear in the SB.

dauntless268 · Postby **dauntless268** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:20 pm

Esper Aggro (Esper Human) is a very awkward MU making it hard to board against, its not as horrible as it seem once you get use to them (like the Ux Devotion MU) I like to assume the 'burn' + flyer role in this MU, thus taking damage and just pointing everything I can at face.
While I agree with everyone that Esper Aggro is an awkward match up I think MDU is spot on here. When I first played MonoU I remember losing 5 2-man's in a row to the deck At the time I thought the match was an auto loss but over
time I've learnt how to play better against them and also learned to recognise when they just have the nuts and you have to chalk it up to variance. I think Esper is the same. Whip into Obzedat is harsh but they don't always get it, their mana base is bad and we have our own auto win draws too

That said what do we think is the best SB plan against them? My first reaction was to take out the 1 drops but dauntless made some interesting points about leaving them in on the play so I'd like to consider this option too.

SB Options I realise that due to MB variances these are not applicable to us all but I wanted to have all the potential options up for discussion
Chains - always good, especially against Necromancer and DD.

Mortars - good PB as they bring in BB (I assume for DD?) and with 25 land O/Ling Mortars
is a real, and often game winning, option.

Glare - takes out a lot of their team - Soldier, Skyknight, Sovereign and DSphere too.

Boros Charm - 4 to the dome, recurs Phoenix and protects against Verdict and spot removal.

Wear - kills Whip and DSphere but is very reactive and has more potential to be a dead draw.

Helix - 4 to the dome and can kill creatures but I think the lower casting cost and protection makes Boros Charm a better option.

Skullcrack - buys us a turn if they get BB/Whip/Obz online and fits in with the flying/to the dome strategy MDU proposes. There may not be room but I think this is worth considering, especially as it is a lot of our SB's already.

Last Breath - deals with Necromancer but even with Dragons the 4 life is likely prohibitive.

Minotaur Skullcleaver - dauntless tech for the aggro strategy (and MonoB) - I've not tried it but it increases the chances of us curving out and 4 damage on T3 is always nice. Worth considering if taking the aggro route.

nReckoner - can lock up the ground but Soldier laughs at him and he dies to both spot removal and DSphere, not a good call here.

Based on this I'd say our best option is to bring in

+1 Chains
+1 Mortars
+2 Boros Charm
+2 Glare/Wear - Glare may be a better SB choice overall as it has wider applications against the rest of the field but the option to have a Wear in my hand for the Whip is tempting ... I do think that if we think Whip requires Wear we need to run 2 otherwise the % chance of having it in hand is too low. If we do that though we increase the chance of having a dead draw. It may be that we just accept if they hit Whip/Obz it's likely GG.

Strategy - Aggro or Control ?
Accepted wisdom would seem to favour taking out the 1 drops and I've done this every time I've faced them so far. (I'm about 50/50 against them over about 10 matches, which surprises me given my recent results!) You can still curve out with Ash and Phoenix into Dragon and just run them over
and I think you also get a better long game. Keeping the 1 drops in is a viable option though and dauntless won his match last night by using this strategy, dropping the Dragons, lowering the curve and bringing in Minotaur Skullcleaver. I'm still in favour of dropping them but I'd be interested to hear everyone else's thoughts

There is indeed a big difference here between play and draw. We run a ton of 2CMC removal so things like Soldier and Sovereign present much more of a problem on the draw. Plus answering Lev Skynight with a Chandra is really nice...

So maybe Aggro + Burn on the play, Control + Burn on the draw?

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:41 pm

This is a crazy thought, but could frostburn wierd replace ash zealot?

Technically yes but I think Ash is better in this deck

NerdBoyWonder · Postby **NerdBoyWonder** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:05 pm

I would say Ash Zealot is better in the deck. She serves the purpose of being an amazing aggro creature while being able to be a solid blocker. Wierd is an amazing defnsive creature but requires mana investments to make him a solid attacker. Also with devotion in standard our goal in being the control deck in matches is to remove their pieces which Ash Zealot allows us to. Wierd tends to leave things on the board because of his body.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:24 pm

So I will most likely be playing this deck all week in preparation for PTQ. I know some of you are on the 8 1 drops, and some are on 6 1 drop plan... Which is working best?

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:56 pm

MDU is posting good results with the 6 drop list (with Helix or Selfie in place of 2 FDS) - see his vids for evidence

and J_S has been posting good results with the 8 drop list - his list and SB plan are a few posts back. I don't honestly think one is objectively better, it comes down to personal preference and meta considerations - 8 will give you slightly better odds Vs Control and B decks, 6 with Helix/Selfie is better against RW Devo, G/R, G Devo, GW and Aggro.

I prefer 8 1 drops MD in theory but I'm running 6 with 2 Helix largely because I find it makes SBing a lot smoother and the deck runs really well. Helix is fun as it can win you a game out of nowhere too, which is always nice

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:08 pm

I am amused to note that after much consideration while writing my lengthy post earlier on the Esper MidRange match up I have concluded that I will drop 1 Glare Of Heresy for 1 Wear/Tear

Dies to Removal

Primer: R/w/x Aggro

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