[Primer] PyroRed

F.I.A · Postby **F.I.A** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:24 am

@Zem: It's Devo Red. Edited that one out. I have been playing a carbon copy of your latest deck that goes like
[deck]4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Striker
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

2 Chandra, Best Card in Standard

4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike

18 Mountain
4 Mutavault

Sideboard
2 Frostburn Weird
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Skullcrack
3 Act of Treason
2 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Hammer of Purphoros[/deck]

Mono U: There wasn't really much to say about this matchup. as the usual thing that kills us is a (or double) MoW backed by tokens. Sure made me wish I ran Walter White for Chained to the Rocks.

Mono G: Aside from the last two I mentioned, Witchstalker sort of ruins our swarm tactics.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:27 am

Ok gotcha. My numbers are broadly the same, little better against Mono U (I'm about 50%) and GW (60%), little worse against Mono B (~75%). Pretty similar across the field though.

Helios · Postby **Helios** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:07 am

So this is probably a dumb suggestion, but is 3 mutavaults, 8 R/W lands, BTE + Firefist too greedy for Walter White, or is there just no reason to?

windstrider · Postby **windstrider** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:11 am

The problem I had against Mono U was that their early ground game, namely Frostburn Weird, prevented a lot of damage from ever connecting. The Satyr is theoretically good vs. the Weirds, but by the time I could kill one, a second one had already joined it. If I could stop the early Weirds, then I not only knocked down their devotion, but I could get through and start applying pressure. That's why I think a 3rd copy of Mortars would be good.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:13 am

How are you boarding anyway?

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:14 am

So this is probably a dumb suggestion, but is 3 mutavaults, 8 R/W lands, BTE + Firefist too greedy for Walter White, or is there just no reason to?

That's my manabase - I havn't had any issues, but what are you cutting for those 8 cards?

Helios · Postby **Helios** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:17 am

Ah, nvm. I thought there was room for Chained in that build still, but it appears that there isn't.

windstrider · Postby **windstrider** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:31 am

I was taking out all my Cacklers for +2 Mortars, +2 Chained with the idea that they were the easiest creatures to get blanked.

I was anticipating a more Mono B meta.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:51 am

Ah ok. I take out all of my 1 drops, since I don't find they line up well against their creatures (1/3s and 2/3s, Master) and just play control.

Link · Postby **Link** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:55 am

the problem we've been having playing control against mono U is dying to stuff we can't afford to spend a card on, them landing a Jace AoT or a bident and they get ahead of us easily. Hell sometimes it feels like just scrying with thassa gets them ahead in cards over a grindy game, then it gets to an overload mortars or bust point <_<

windstrider · Postby **windstrider** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:59 am

Yeah. I tried it that way too and took out the Satyrs as well. It was extremely frustrating to not draw any of my sideboard cards. In one game, I had an unblockable Thassa killing me. One Chain, and I could have stabilized the match. Never saw one, nor did I see a Mortars to knock her off devotion. It could have just been bad draws, but I like the idea of having another Mortars to kill things.

InflatablePie · Postby **InflatablePie** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:01 am

I think I might end up cutting the lone Plains in my manabase for another Mountain. It's bad enough when I get VaultBlocked from Reckoners in the board, but I know it's kept me off t2 Zealots way more times than helped cast a Chained/Charm.

Also I can't find a cool enough looking Plains to mesh with the Mountains I'm running anyway soooo.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:13 am

Yeah. I tried it that way too and took out the Satyrs as well. It was extremely frustrating to not draw any of my sideboard cards. In one game, I had an unblockable Thassa killing me. One Chain, and I could have stabilized the match. Never saw one, nor did I see a Mortars to knock her off devotion. It could have just been bad draws, but I like the idea of having another Mortars to kill things.

Have you tried the 04x Boros Reckoner and 1-2x Fanatic of Mogis combo? I got back from two resolved Jace while the opp. was on 15+ life like that.

F.I.A · Postby **F.I.A** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:12 am

How does the latest Walter White look like? The last time I ran one, I have two Chain mained and two sideboarded, so it wasn't an issue against MoWs (Sometimes they outdrew you, true).

Helios · Postby **Helios** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:17 am

The one in the original post is the latest, SB to your meta. Since he's gotten the most legitimate Walter White play in of late, I'd recommend MDU's sb to start. The 60 hasn't changed, the only point of discussion is Plains v. Mountain v. Muta.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:10 am

Zemanjaski or any other MODO grinder - what do you expect to see during the MOCS 11 Finals? I'm looking through my Sideboard Plans now and notice I have a few cards which are only used in very limited MUs thus I'm trying to find more versatile options. Beside the top5, I'm guessing BG will be a dark horse along with BW, UW and Dega. What are your thoughts?

EDIT: I really don't want to dedicate Cards for BW and Dega, if possible I would like to pretend they won't appear....

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:39 am

Mono U, Mono B and Esper will be the big decks I think.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:54 am

Mono U, Mono B and Esper will be the big decks I think.

Thats a given, the top5 are:

Mono Black Devotion
Esper Control
Mono Blue Devotion
Colossal Gruul
R/x

The other 1900+ Grinders think B/x/x Midrange will be a thing and due to this article we may see GW (but I doubt it).

If B/x/x midrange is a thing we'll need to include Threaten somewhere in our 75 so we can be offensively defensive (did that make any sense) since flooding our deck with removal is not how we win those MUs. Blue Devo and Colossal Gruul also needs some dedicated hate since the pure control approach isn't easy with the powerful draw engine
both decks have going, thus whatever I/we decide on its going to be tight.

p.s. that Article is well worth reading if you intend to play large events anytime soon.

F.I.A · Postby **F.I.A** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:56 am

There might also be an occasional rogue hexproof enchant deck as well with everyone focusing on creatures and creature removals.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:04 am

Mono U, Mono B and Esper will be the big decks I think.
Thats a given, the top5 are:

Mono Black Devotion
Esper Control
Mono Blue Devotion
Colossal Gruul
R/x

The other 1900+ Grinders think B/x/x Midrange will be a thing and due to this article we may see GW (but I doubt it).

If B/x/x midrange is a thing we'll need to include Threaten somewhere in our 75 so we can be offensively defensive (did that make any sense) since flooding our deck with
removal is not how we win those MUs. Blue Devo and Colossal Gruul also needs some dedicated hate since the pure control approach isn't easy with the powerful draw engine both decks have going, thus whatever I/we decide on its going to be tight.

p.s. that Article is well worth reading if you intend to play large events anytime soon.

If you can figure out a SB plan that gets you to 50%+ against Mono U, I would just play Mono R in that field. You're Esper and Mono B are better than 70% and they're going to be metagaming against each other (eg: Mono B players are cutting Pharika's Cures), and both of those decks hate on Mono U and GR.

Just my 2c.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:08 am

Mono U, Mono B and Esper will be the big decks I think.
Thats a given, the top5 are:

Mono Black Devotion
Esper Control
Mono Blue Devotion
Colossal Gruul
R/x

The other 1900+ Grinders think B/x/x Midrange will be a thing and due to this article we may see GW (but I doubt it).

If B/x/x midrange is a thing we'll need to
include Threaten somewhere in our 75 so we can be offensively defensive (did that make any sense) since flooding our deck with removal is not how we win those MUs. Blue Devo and Colossal Gruul also needs some dedicated hate since the pure control approach isn't easy with the powerful draw engine both decks have going, thus whatever I/we decide on its going to be tight.

p.s. that Article is well worth reading if you intend to play large events anytime soon.
If you can figure out a SB plan that gets you to 50%+ against Mono U, I would just play Mono R in that field. You're Esper and Mono B are better than 70% and they're going to be metagaming against each other (eg: Mono B players are cutting Pharika's Cures), and both of those decks hate on Mono U and GR.

Just my 2c.

Focusing all the hate on Mono U and riding out the meta game... sounds so crazy it may work

I'll see what I can cook up.

F.I.A · Postby **F.I.A** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:34 am

If Black is really cutting on the Cure, it's also a score for us, since that's one way a Rakdos Cackler can die at (Not to mention they get a heal out of the deal).

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:33 am

I don't think its uniform, but looking through lists I am starting to see people running less than 4 or none at all, whereas last week it was uniformly a 4-of in every list.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:50 am

Last Two Events

Here is the last 4-0 which I got during Standard Daily Event 6162817 which gave me enough QPS for the MOCS 11 Finals:

[deck=Zem & MDU's Australian Winter BBQ]Lands 23
12 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault

Creatures 20
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers 03
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Enchantments 02
2 Chained
to the Rocks

Instants 12
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock

Sideboard 15
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Skullcrack
2 Boros Charm
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Fanatic of Mogis
1 Hammer of Purphoros[/deck]

Here are the replays:
G1: MonoBlack Devotion
G2: MonoRed Devotion
G3: Gr Aggro
G4: I Split Round four with imtheking, who was running Rw Devotion (you can check out his list on the Devotion thread)

Post Event Thoughts
1) This is the list that I would take to Grind DE I feel that it does enough to deal with our common MUs though GR and MonoBlue Devotion are tight.
2) B/x/x is a terrible MU however it is not common in normal DE's but they act as strong wild horses which can prey on the top5

[b:
2taocl53]MOCS 11 Thoughts[/b]
1) Predicting the meta with other grinders is difficult, we do get the advantage of watching the Prelim games which many of the MOCS 11 Finalist will be grinding for the $$ Lands (much like what happen when they release the other two $$ lands).
2) I know 12/15 cards which I want in my SB with 3 flex spots:

Sideboard 12
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Skullcrack
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Fanatic of Mogis

I was going to run more removal however its becoming increasingly difficult to side-out cards without hurting the consistency.

windstrider · Postby **windstrider** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:49 pm

Yeah. I tried it that way too and took out the Satyrs as well. It was extremely frustrating to not draw any of my sideboard cards. In one game, I had an unblockable Thassa killing me. One Chain, and I could have stabilized the match. Never saw one, nor did I see a Mortars to knock her off devotion. It could have just been bad draws, but I like the idea of having another Mortars to kill things.
Have you tried the 04x Boros Reckoner and 1-2x Fanatic of Mogis combo? I got back from two resolved Jace while the opp. was on
15+ life like that.

No, I have not been able to try that configuration yet. I am intrigued by it, however. Where else would you want to be using the Fanatic? I do want to bring in Reckoners against them since it would be able to stop their ground game.

This is what I'm currently trying out:

[deck]Walter White[/deck]

Purphoros is an experiment. I have yet to set it in actual play, so I don't know how it works as yet. A Zealot and a Phoenix provide enough devotion for Purph to turn him on. (He's
dirty that way.) If nothing else, he's a giant, unkillable thing. Against anything with a lot of removal, he gets sided out for the other Chandra.

Against Mono U, I'd be -4 Cacklers, -4 Firedrinkers, -2 Shock, +2 Chained, +4 Reckoners, +3 Mortars, + 1 Chandra
The Cacklers, Firedrinkers, and Shocks are coming out since they aren't good vs. most everything in that deck. I'd want some Shocks for the ability to kill a turn 1 Raptor, but that's about it. Everything else listed should be good in that matchup.

I'd honestly love to put in a single Nykthos to be able to overload Mortars more easily, but there's already enough variance with mana that I don't want to be adding any more. Removing a 'vault is not an option as it is one of the best grindy cards in so many matchups. Plus, it can kill MoW in combat.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:08 pm

Yeah. I tried it that way too and took out the Satyrs as well. It was extremely frustrating to not draw any of my sideboard cards. In one game, I had an unblockable Thassa killing me. One Chain, and I could have stabilized the match. Never saw one, nor did I see a Mortars to knock her off devotion. It could have just been bad draws, but I like the idea of having another Mortars to kill things.
Have you tried the 04x [
card]Boros Reckoner[/card] and 1-2x Fanatic of Mogis combo? I got back from two resolved Jace while the opp. was on 15+ life like that.
No, I have not been able to try that configuration yet. I am intrigued by it, however. Where else would you want to be using the Fanatic? I do want to bring in Reckoners against them since it would be able to stop their ground game.

This is what I'm currently trying out:

[deck]Walter White[/deck]

Purphoros is an
experiment. I have yet to set it in actual play, so I don't know how it works as yet. A Zealot and a Phoenix provide enough devotion for Purph to turn him on. (He's dirty that way.) If nothing else, he's a giant, unkillable thing. Against anything with a lot of removal, he gets sided out for the other Chandra.

Against Mono U, I'd be -4 Cacklers, -4 Firedrinkers, -2 Shock, +2 Chained, +4 Reckoners, +3 Mortars, + 1 Chandra
The Cacklers, Firedrinkers, and Shocks are coming out since they aren't good vs. most everything in that deck. I'd want some Shocks for the ability to kill a turn 1 Raptor, but that's about it. Everything else listed should be good in that matchup.

I'd honestly love to put in a single Nykthos to be able to overload Mortars more easily, but there's already enough variance with mana that I don't want to be adding any more. Removing a 'vault is not an option as it is one of the best grindy cards in so many matchups. Plus, it can kill MoW in combat.

I look
forward to hearing about how the Purphoros, God of the Forge works for you - he seems really good combined with [card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card] recasting and Young Pyromancer tokens.

In regards to Fanatic of Mogis I bring them in all games where we take control role, though Mono Blue Devotion and Colossal Gruul are the main reasons for them.

EDIT: I like Shock in this MU to deal with Tidebinder Mage, Frostburn Weird (they do block with him), Cloudfin Raptor and [card]Judge's Familiar[/card]

windstrider · Postby **windstrider** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:23 pm

In theory, Purph should provide a lot of benefits, but I'm not willing to commit too much to him. I ran him there last FNM, but I never got to see him in action. If he's no good, then I'll probably throw a [card]Pyromancer's Gauntlet[/card] there.

I like trying different things in the decks I run, usually as a 1-of as a kind of wildcard. That way it's not destabilizing the rest of the deck, but it might give the extra push I need to get through something.

dauntless268 · Postby **dauntless268** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:14 pm

Hi, joined recently here from another forum... You guys are just great!

Given the current matchups of this deck, I wonder if it's worthwhile pre-sideboarding a little with Walter White against midrange and control (simultaneously), for example

+2 Chained to the Rocks
+2 Boros Charm
-2 Ash Zealot
-2 Shock

in maindeck with 1-2 Plains + 8 duals (based on eg MDU's list). Not sure numbers or what to take out are correct, but wanted to throw up the idea. Thoughts?

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:30 pm

Regarding Frostburn Weird, it helps running three Mizzium Mortars mainboard. The white splash variant wants to save Chained for Master obviously but Mortars is huge insurance for a deck with limited ways to deal with both Weird and Specter.

I'm personally staying on my mono red version for now. Just feels right to me.

Draksil · Postby **Draksil** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:40 pm

Isn't Mortars mb a problem when it comes to recurring Phoenix?

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:13 pm

Not when you're running 12 other burn spells and two Chandra.

Draksil · Postby **Draksil** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:19 pm

Oh, thought you wanted to remove other burn spells for Mortars

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:25 pm

No, I run a different PyroRed build because I'm a special snowflake.

Helios · Postby **Helios** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:35 pm

MDU, when are the finals? Can we watch?

windstrider · Postby **windstrider** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:36 pm

Oh, thought you wanted to remove other burn spells for Mortars

I suggested removing 2 Shocks in my sideboarding plans vs. Mono U Devotion builds. Not sure if that is correct, but it is a configuration I want to test.

Self Medicated · Postby **Self Medicated** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:00 pm

Just wondering if anyone is playing Tymaret Pyro? There was some discussion a few pages back, but I haven't heard anything recently. I plan on playing Tymaret Pyro (as well as Mono B) for most of the season, and am looking for any possible ways to improve my deck. This is all theory crafting at this point:

[DECK]
Lands (22)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
10 Mountain
4 Swamp

Creatures (22)
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
2 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Spells (14)
2 Dreadbore
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock

Sideboard (15)
3 Act of Treason
2 Dreadbore
2 Doom Blade
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ultimate Price
[/DECK]

I remember LK talking about how Slaughter Games is very well positioned right now, and I believe it would do a tremendous amount of work in my
local meta. I'm also very excited about the synergies between Tymaret and Phoenix, Tymaret and Act of Treason, pretty much Tymaret in general.

Aodh · Postby **Aodh** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:21 pm

Run Godless Shrines instead of swamps and get Boros Reckoner in there, IMO. If you wanna' stay on the mono-terror plan, I'd run Dark Betrayal instead of Ultimate Price because it hits Obzedat and Demon for one mana.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:53 pm

Here are the replays:
G1: Esper Control (I recommend watching this replay as an good example into why RW is good)
G2: Esper Control
G3: MonoBlack Devotion
G4: I split round 4 with Don Juan Quixote (my R2 opp. from last event)

Post Event Side Board Plan:

Esper Control

In:
2 Skullcrack
2 Boros Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Out:
1 Shock
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Young Pyromancer

Explanation:
Esper runs Jace and Sweepers, Young Pyromancer acts more like an expensive 2cc bear in many cases.
Mizzium Mortars the hell??? Well Esper control now runs 03x Barons as an answer against MonoBlack Devotion - Mortars when overloaded can also deal with tokens.

If anyone approves or disapproves of my sideboard plans I would love to hear why

I know this is a couple days old but it doesn't look like anyone else touched on this.

I have to disagree quite a bit to siding out YP against Esper (or anyone honestly). I think the problem is how you're using it.

I only have your first video to go off of but game one you were overextending when you played it. The correct play was to keep it in hand, let him verdict, play it, and then use the 4+ burn spells you used later as a flood of tokens. Game 2, you played it turn 3 when you had 2 boros charm in hand. It's better to play it
turn 4 when you can boros charm immediately to save it and get a token.

In fact, if you get to a point where you have YP and tokens on the board, you probably should stop playing any creatures other than phoenixes so if he has to verdict your YP swarm, you have more to represent because he only 1 for 1'd you. If he doesn't verdict, he needs Jace or lose. And if he Jaces, you burn it out, get more tokens, and he's even further behind. Esper has to counter or kill YP immediately or be forced into a situation where they are quickly losing card advantage.

From the games I watched and describing it as a bear, it seems like you view it less like Huntmaster of the Fells and more like Mogg War Marshal. That feels like a flawed analogy but basically, YP is a guy that runs away with the game if unanswered and forces your opponent to play a certain way instead of a mook who makes a couple more mooks.

Helios · Postby **Helios** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:51 pm

I also disagree with siding out YP$. Personally, I'd side out Lightning Strikes / Shocks and leave the Pyromancers in. Shock being cheap is a boon, but using Strike + Chandra / elemental to take out a Blood Baron is big game...99% they'll even tap out for the Baron, and it's basically a time walk. YP$ and a Phoenix can just take over the game. Skullcrack/Charm for other burn is an easy substitution.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:24 pm

You take out Shocks and bring in Skulcracks. You need your cards to do more damage individually in that matchup and negating the lifegain from Revelation or Blood Baron is relevant as well.

Dies to Removal

[Primer] PyroRed

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