[Primer] PyroRed

[Woj]

Really liking the PyroRed deck, Zem would love a stream with it to learn all the intricacies I don't understand =P

BTW thank you so much for all the content Zem and co. Really amazing stuff, there's no better way to get back to mono red =)

[photodyer]

Thanks Helios. Ill make it GWx midrange to cover bigger GW lists and Junk; then add RG ramp as well.

You might touch on BG Mid in here as well; also BW control is somewhere between Dega and Junk.

[zemanjaski]

Absolutely. There's a part of me that likes going 2nd (not that it ever happens by choice) game 1, just because you get to see what your opponent is playing and sculpt your game plan. At FNM, when my opponent went Temple of Silence -> Temple of Triumph I had to resist the urge to giggle. Oh, tap lands.

I had~

Turn 1.
Mountain, Cackler, unleash
Temple of Triumph, scry 1

Turn 2.
Mountain, Ash Zealot, swing for 4 (opponent at 16)
Tapped Godless Shrine

Turn 3.
Mutavault, swing for 4 (opponent at 12) (holding Phoenix as wrath insurance)
Swamp, Read the Bones (opponent at 10)

Seriously, what the actual fuck, guy.

I went EOT Magma Jet (8) into Mountain, swing with Mutavault (2), Shock.

Him: nice draw

Flippin' LOL
n
RE: Stream, I need to sort out my technical problems :S I really want to stream as well!

[F.I.A]

2 Mountain, Young Pyromancer, Chandra’s Phoenix, 2 Lightning Strike, Chandra
2 Mountain, 2 Cackler, Shock, Phoenix, Chandra
2 Mountain, 2 Ash Zealot, Magma Jet, Flames, Hammer

These are definitely keepable

3 Mountain, Mutavault, Cackler, Firedrinker, Flames of the Firebrand

Manageable. You got your turn 1&2 drop, and enough lands for Flames in case of swarm.

3 Mountain, Lightning Strike, Flames of the Firebrand, 2 Chandra’s Phoenix

No turn 1 & 2 drop, but keepable. You'll be playing control with this hand.[/
i]

4 Mountain, Cackler, Young Pyromancer, Magma Jet

Odd is, you want to Magma Jet by turn 2 (Best if you have any target for it) to make sure you don't draw any excess lands.

4 Mountain, Cackler, Shock, Chandra

If the Shock is Spark Jolt, I can consider keeping it try to keep the board clean for Chandra.

4 Mountain, Mutavault, Shock, Magma Jet
4 Mountain, 2 Firedrinker, Shock

See above explanation. Though the latter hand is a better keep all round.

@zemanjaski: Yeah, played a few games where the opponent pretty invited me for free hits. That's why I don't see the deal about having more than 8 tap lands (including shocks) in a deck.
I facepalmed at times when they Boros Charmd themselves for turn 1 Thoughtseize.

[zemanjaski]

I've been turn 1 thoughtseized and they took Chandra, not Rakdos Cackler. What the actual fuck.

[F.I.A]

Maybe they have Dark Betrayal for it. Right? Right?

[zemanjaski]

I've also had "Thoughtseize you, take shock. Die a little on the inside"

[Calamity]

I get giddy every time my opponent thoughtseizes turn 1 off of a shock land and looks to see i have 2 one drops in my hand

[F.I.A]

I also like those times when someone Thoughtseize late game, and I responded with two burns and showed him a land.

[warwizard87]

I've also had "Thoughtseize you, take shock. Die a little on the inside"

i want this to happen everygame.

[LP, of the Fires]

4-0 at TNM tonight. Played:

Round 1, boros agro: 2-1, lost game 2 keeping an awesome 2 lander and not seeing the third. His deck was mostly white based, but he played firedrinker so whatever. Match felt like a bye.

Round 2, esper control: 2-0, bye matchup is bye

Round 3, Junk Mid: 2-1, lost game 2 on a mull to 5, but the game was winnable. I thought I misplayed when I mortars a voice token when I have no defenses, am at 6 and my opponent has voice, and 2/2 elemental. I killed the token because I know my opponent plays mistcutter hydra, and I figured I should play around lethal damage. Next turn, he plays thune, then I draw the 6th land that would have overloaded it. Found out I actually misplayed on the blocks the turn before as I had Ashley, Reckoner, and cackler(unleashed) vs. 2/2 mistcutter hydra, smiter, and 4/4 elemental all attacking my while tapped out and at 9(opponent at 6). I did the "smart" play
of ash blocking hydra and reckoner blocking smiter to fs his hydra shrinking the elemental then having reckoner trade with smiter so it's me at 6 saving a point of life. While walking into my house just now, I realized that in that instant with him tapped out and a million other factors that the 1 life didn't matter and I should have just had Ashley block smiter and reckoner block hydra trigger, kill smiter going to 5 leaving me with a reckoner in play. Then, the following turn, I wouldn't have even though of playing my mortars and I would have given myself a MUCH higher chance to win the game(we're talking like at least a 50% difference). Oh well, beat him game 2 with act of treason(didn't have foil traitorus instinct).

Round 4, Devotion red. A friend of mine who doesn't usually play standard, but was testing our local pros list of Devotion red while he drafted. Game 1, I exiled a phoenix with annihilating fire. GG bro. Game 2, it was a grind where he was always ahead of me, but I clear the board
at 6 life. I should have died, but he missed a reckoner trigger from overload mortars. I even said trigger, and he was like, yeah, pyromancer token from spell. K. I won this game the exact same way as Owen in his article from yesterday. I'm dead to everything, and he has a frostburn weird. I decide to bluff shock and attack aggressively like I have it so he swing for one a couple turns while drawing land and I eventually get there with Chandra and her phoenix.

Regarding all this hoopla about Pyro red:

Here's why I started playing red(besides the clan being awesome in general and Z/khaos/thirst converting me by virtue of being likeminded indviduals: as a guy who played control for years, one incentive for playing the deck is it theoretically reduces variance by seeing more cards over the course of the game and is thus viewed as more "skill" intensive for that factor and because it forces players to make more decisions giving the better player the edge by allowing them to incur incremental
value from a greater density of correct decisions.

The power of red is that it's generally the most consistent deck in the format and is usually several turns faster then the other decks while having a strategic advantage against non-red agro decks by virtue of being non-linear and highly interactive outside of combat. While there may be a lower amount of decisions in games the red deck wins, they often are a lot more critical to the outcome of a matchup as opposed to taking two from a creature as a blue mage to leave up counter mana for x-relevant threat then killing it at the end of turn when your opponent plays around said counter/doesn't have any follow up.

The power of PYRO red is that in addition to having the turn 4/5 goldfish potential of other agro decks, it also has ways of "drawing cards" via Chandra's phoenix recursion, actually drawing cards with Chandra, and seeing plenty of extra cards with the occasional magma jet combined with a robust mid to late game meaning we have the
minimal variance of an ideal control deck along with nutdraw potential.

That's insane. It's fitting that khaos made a bruce lee reference as I was thinking similar things today. The deck really is "like water" to quote Lee in that it can take a form fitting the situation between superior beatdown, tempo oriented plays, and outright controlling what the opponent is capable of. Lightning fast punches paired with rib shattering kicks. When piloting the deck, you get immense satisfaction(or at least I do) out of exploring various lines of play and wading your way through various board states while simultaneously pressuring your opponent and taunting them into bad positions. It's a thing of beauty winning tight games through tight play in turns 10+ while fighting through flood, getting value from P$ finding answers with magma jet and chipping away with recurring phoenix's.

What I value more then the frustrated opponent who lost on turn 4 because he tapped out for read the bones, is the
confused opponent who's watching you slowly grind advantage, chip away at his life, and maintain pressure on board while you still have 3 cards in his hand. The confusion, turns to worry, turns to shock EOT, recur my phoenix, swing for game. You reduce the opposition to a frog in a pot of water as you slowly crank up the dial to a simmer and then a boil. Next thing you know, they're done.

[F.I.A]

I really want to play against more mirror matches to discourage me from using Spark Jolt. The bounty collected so far:
Fair enough
Experiment One
Elvish Mystic
Soldier of the Pantheon
Boros Elite
Firedrinker Satyr
Dryad Militant
[card]Judge's Familiar[/card]

Value
Young Pyromancer
Satyr Hedonist
Burning-Tree Emissary (Granted, she attacked into a 1/1 after getting jolted)

OMG did you see that kill!?
Spark Trooper

[zemanjaski]

Great write up LP, I feel the same way.

Part 1 of the PyroRed matchup guide is up: viewtopic.php?f=108&t=1696

[warwizard87]

just did a 40 game set vs the g/w deck that won SCGs Cleveland. preboard 8-12...G/W is definitely favored game 1, our speed draws completely get hosed by a single unflinching and we don't have enough removal yet to grind them.

post board 14-6 NOW this is WAY more like it, dropping the 1 drops for a play set of reckoners and mortars, the inclusion of annihilating fire ( which is actually better then I thought) one thing to rember kill the lion ASAP, if he gets hex proof we lose, unless we can over take them before they get unflinching courage on it, we just lose to it. the life gain is annoying especially if they get Trostani in play, but normally you can make a HUGE army of tokens for blocking and then overload a mortars clearing most of the table and just swarm.

[windstrider]

PyroRed reminds me of the budget zombie deck that I was playing for a while. I kept getting my ass handed to me while playing my tricked out Heartless Summoning, and I couldn't figure out why. I knew the cards were good: Wurmcoil Engines, Frost Titan, Havengul Lich, Demons, etc. But I kept losing, so I threw together a weenie zombie list with Walking Corpses, Ghoulraisers, Highborn Ghouls, Skinrenders, 2 Gravecrawlers, and Grimgrin, plus removal and Ghoulcaller's Chant. I brought it to FNM and took down much better decks. Using Ghouldcaller's Chant on 2 Ghoulraisers took people by surprise, and I eked out incremental wins with a bunch of 2-power dudes.

I realized that I had been letting the cards decide what I should play rather than me. Since the cards in Heartless were so much more powerful, I was sloppy with them, thinking I could win through sheer thuggishness. And while that sometimes worked, a lot of times more
skilled players could play around my superior threats or neutralize them entirely.

The weenie deck, by contrast, forced me to become a better player because I knew the cards weren't that powerful. I had to play smarter to get the most possible advantage out of each play. And it helped to make me a much better player by forcing me to stop and analyze what was happening.

PyroRed is like that weenie deck. It's deceptively underpowered looking. I mean, what good are 2-power creatures vs. 4/4 Smiters and giant hydras? Heck, it's a beatdown deck that sometimes wins with 1/1 tokens. How crazy is that? It must be plenty crazy because it works.

I haven't been this exhilarated to play Magic in a long time.

[Purp]

Been testing the past few days A LOT of mono red lists as well as a Maze's End fog deck in preparation for States this Saturday. Right now Maze's End, PyroRed and the creature heavy list that won California states list. We have a lot of really good players here in Atlanta, and the meta is about as wide open as anywhere else. I expect to see a lot of dega/junk/esper/gw as well as mirror matches.

Maze's End - I don't think I have lost a midrange/control matchup with this deck. I am usually able to stall out most aggro matches, but often times if I found myself low on fogs I am in a situation where it's either draw a fog, or die next turn. This worries me because I expect to see a lot of red decks at States.

I pretty much played Mono Red all last season(IQ wins, PTQ top , and consider myself very good at the deck. I am extremely
confident in the mirror matches because I understand the role of becoming the control like player.

The thing I like about the creature heavy fanatic list, is that it simply has the chance to blow out an opponent. The MD reckoners seem very beneficial when I am expecting the mirror.

The thing I am loving the most about the PyroRed list is that, the varying amount of play lines. I think of all the red decks, it gives you the most opportunity to out play an opponent.

[Christen]

I played this against my test group and I didn't win even once with a recent Boros Midrange deck pre-board. Does it straight up lose game 1? Game 2 seems to be better though still hard.

The said list:
[deck]
Creatures
4 Archangel of Thune
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Ember Swallower

Spells
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Anger of the Gods
1 Assemble the Legion
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Magma Jet
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
2 Boros Guildgate
10 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
[/deck]

[F.I.A]

It's definitely beatable. You will be keeping the burn for his creatures. Phoenix seems to be your trump card with Reckoner walling the ground, so keep it available even if it's to burn it yourself to allow you to recur in response to an Anger.

Or, if it's necessary, kill that creature the Helix is aimed at to deny the heal.

[Khaospawn]

I played this against my test group and I didn't win even once with a recent Boros Midrange deck pre-board. Does it straight up lose game 1? Game 2 seems to be better though still hard.

The said list:
[deck]
Creatures
4 Archangel of Thune
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Ember Swallower

Spells
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Anger of the Gods
1 Assemble the Legion
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Magma Jet
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
2 Boros Guildgate
10 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
[/deck]

There are so many dead cards in the Control match.

[zemanjaski]

I don't think you're meant to best that Boros deck; it's unrealistically slanted to best aggro.youll just have to accept something like a 20% match win rate and content yourself with the knowledge that his deck has a similar win % against control.

[Elricity]

So if his meta is currently heavy agro, is his best choice to go some midrange deck to weather both ends until his LGS prepares to control hate that boros deck out and then go Pyro and sweep?

[Jack]

For those who have tested 3 Mutavault, 20 Mountain, no Hammer main and 2 Hammer, no lands side, what are your feelings on it over 2 Muta, 20 Mountain, 1 Hammer main and 1 Hammer 1 land side? I'm beginning to think that Hammer doesn't fit my game 1 plan against certain decks as well, but if I didn't have any main, I probably wouldn't be willing to cut even more spells to make room for them game 2. I think I want one versus some aggro decks for game two, but wouldn't want it more than, say, a Young Pyromancer that I might consider cutting. As an aside, I think if I wanted to run a 23rd land main, it'd be a Mountain rather than a Mutavault because it makes more sense when we're playing Reckoner. I don't really even want to see Mutavault until I've laid down three mountains game 1 (for Ash Zealot + Shock), so I think it is fine to only play two when most of the games we win go a bit longer.

[windstrider]

@Freedom — I haven't had a chance to test the 23 land main variant with the Hammer in the side, but I was never unhappy with seeing the Hammer in the 22 land version. I liked that I had another line of play available.

What does everyone think of Traitorous Instinct over Act of Treason? I'm liking the extra power from Instinct, but is it worth the extra cost, especially if we "draw" it with Chandra's 0 ability when we have a spell already in hand?

[zemanjaski]

RE: Land. I really like the 23rd land in the main. I think there's enough synergy in the deck to compensate for drawing one spell; but I'm playing a 3rd Mutavault, so it's half a spell. I think that in the matchup where you really want the hammer game 1 (control) you're pretty favoured anyway.

There are good arguments for the extra land being a mountain, especially as it makes the Reckoner sideboard plan better.

I beat a UW guy 2-0 in the queues who then raged at me. We were then immediately paired again and I beat him 2-0 again. Won through an Elspeth in play for four turns one game; Chandra fights Elspeth quite well.

RE: Threatens. I'm pretty sold on Traitorous Instinct, 1 mana to Shock them is a fine extra rate in the matchups where you want this effect. Sure, there will be the occasional feel bad moment, but that's the reality of Chandra; its not perfect.

[Jurrk]

Thanks Helios. Ill make it GWx midrange to cover bigger GW lists and Junk; then add RG ramp as well.

@ Raida

[deck]
Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sorceries
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Instants
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock

Lands
20 Mountain
3 Mutavault

Sideboard
2 Act of Treason
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Hammer of Purphoros
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Skullcrack[/deck]

I'm typically more of a Sledgehammer type of guy but I'd love to try and make the transition
to the "thinking man's deck" but my issue is only having 2 Chandra's at the moment. I have plenty of money cards to trade for a third but my 3 local card shops have absolutely NOTHING in stock as far as she goes. How much does -1 Chandra affect this deck and what would you replace her with to help its viability? Perhaps a mainboard hammer?

[Jack]

Makes sense, Z. You pretty much just explained my own thought process, but based on both of our track records, I put more faith into your words than my thoughts. I think I will play 21 Mountains just because I really don't lean on Mutavault that heavily, and I've had enough game 2s where a second Mutavault has fucked over my ability to make plays such as giving Reckoner first strike as well as shocking their x/5.

I'm not sure if I should leave my SB the way it is after shifting around my 75 so that both Hammers are in the side or if I should completely copy your SB and change the 2 Weirds and the fourth Chandra into 3 Skullcracks. I've started to realize that none of the reasons why Skullcrack was a bad card to play in red when it was first released apply to this deck, since we're often holding most of our mana up anyway. It can recur a Phoenix, stop a Revelation, kill a Planeswalker, create elementals with YP$,
and simply go upstairs when you have the win with burn spells. However, I do like my Weirds against green midrange, as they're certainly an upgrade over Ash Zealot. Having the fourth Chandra is nice as well.

Who feels like they can sway my opinion one way or the other?

[zemanjaski]

@ Jurrik; running a hammer in place of the third Chandra is fine.

[lorddax]

Playing back in my head my friday match vs Devo Green and seeing what I should have done if I wasn't on tilt after getting my second land mother fucking Bramblecrushed then getting steamrolled g1. Game 2 I blazed back with curve out beat down but G3 I was definitely still titling and lost 60% to my opponent and 40% to myself

Vs the Mono G devo deck (Experiment 1 into Tusker into Satyr on Exp1 or Bow into God) out one drops and in removal & reckoner and then make cuts for threatens? Nylaa + bow turns off token defense.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah out 1 drops and 2 Shock for 4 Reckoner, 4 Mortars and 2 Threatens.

[lorddax]

Damn. Thats exactly what I came up with 1 beer and 2hrs later after FNM lol

[Jack]

I usually like to cut Flames rather than Shock in that matchup, since shock is an instant and only costs one mana, giving you a large upper hand during the combat step. Shock + first strike Reckoner can kill the typical Reverent Hunter (elf/e1 + BTE), and it helps you make favorable trades when you have YP$ out.

[Wrathberry2]

I've been turn 1 thoughtseized and they took Chandra, not Rakdos Cackler. What the actual fuck.

thats because people just know that thoughtseize is good, and so they play it. but without having any idea how this card works, and that its for especialy EARLY disruption. how do you care that he takes your 4-drop? untill then you can easily just draw another one^^

btw: i love that i already have all the cards i need for All 3 variants of Red decks i want to play in the future. meaning devotion, pyro and rdw+dragons

[zemanjaski]

Yeah that's good also. I was testing with Annihilating Fire last night so I have that card in my head instead of Flames of the Firebrand sorry!

[Wrathberry2]

does anyone think, that you could put annihilating fires into your board, if you expect many voices?
they really can be annoying, especialy if they draw more than 1.
do you think that annihilating fire is worth playing vs them?

[Elricity]

It's come up a few times as worthy of experimentation. It also gets rid of phoenixes which is equally important. I think there was even a leaning of putting 1-2 mainboard. Can't remember the layout exactly.

[LP, of the Fires]

We've decided to swap flames with annihilating fire I think.

While intuitively, flames should be more powerful in the mirror and against dork decks for the chance of a 2-for-1, Fire kills Chandra's phoenix and voice cleanly which is abstractly worth a lot more.

I've sadly made the concession of putting hammer of P in my board.

[Jack]

Yeah, I was just thinking that the Flames slot would be where I'd put TubeHunter if I were to play the card. Now, I'm deciding that I do want to play the card, as G/W is a pretty dominant deck, and this is better than Flames against them. In order to answer Unflinching Courage, you usually have to use combat damage + a burn spell. The problem with Flames is that, at sorcery speed, you have to make them block in order to make that situation happen, and the opponent can tell when this is your intent and choose not to block, leaving you with no blockers for their big lifelinker.

What's going on in my head right now:
My hesitation to adding Annihilating Fire is that it screws up my boarding plans a bit, but I'm sure I can cope with that. As my list approaches becoming an exact match to the one Z used to develop an abundance of helpful content, my understanding of how to play in each matchup increases and my results
improve. If I use his exact 75, I won't have to think about developing my own boarding plans since he has already created them, but I'm not sure that is really what I should be doing, as we face different metagames and have slightly different playstyles, even though I try to emulate his.
Still undecided on 3 Skullcrack or 2 Weird 1 Chandra.
Edit: holy shit, 5 guests!

[dpaine88]

Seismic Stomp was pretty nasty in my testing for Devotion Red. Wonder if it would be any good here in the SB. Do you guys find you can keep the board relatively clear or does it begin to stall?

[Jack]

I actually like a stalled board state, since we usually have more ways of gaining the upper hand than they do with Chandra, Chandra's Phoenix and YP$.

[dpaine88]

Don't think you really need Weird in this deck. He would be good but seems like we have enough options against aggro. Skullcrack is a lot better against control, obviously.