[Primer] PyroRed

[zemanjaski]

Unless you need to cast it on curve (almost never) paying 1 to shock them is just CA redbros.

[zemanjaski]

Also annihilating fire seems great; Voice and Phoenix are two of the best cards against you; and at the end of the day I'm regularly going upstairs with Flames, so the instant aspect is nice.

I did live the dream last night with a 3-for-1 though >:)

Exiling Phoenix is a big game in the semi-mirror since I think it's Devotion Red's best card against you post-board.

[Jack]

I'm starting to realize that Burning Earth really isn't where we want to be against the three color decks that have become dominant as of late. Most of them can just play around it. Is Skullcrack good enough against the meta in general to warrant playing in their stead? I'd like to try out Annihilating Fire, but I'm really looking for something more against control, because with my current board, I can only bring in Mountain and Hammer.

[Jack]

Of course, Frostburn Weird could very well be the card I'm looking for. I really like him late game against control. He's essentially our AEtherling, although I guess you could say the same about multiple Phoenixes.

[Jack]

Thinking about this for a SB:
[deck]
Sideboard
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Traitorous Instinct
2 Frostburn Weird
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Mountain
[/deck]

I used the three slots opened up by the removal of Burning Earth to sure up my control MU. I just really like to see Chandra against control. I like Frostburn Weird in many matchups, but I think I'll only bring him in against control because Boros Reckoner just does a generally better job in the other matchups where I'd consider Weird. I still don't have much of a plan for Big Boros yet, so would anyone be willing to share their thoughts on the matchup, or even better, test with me on Cockatrice after I eat dinner?

[F.I.A]

Game 1: I agree with you that it was a good play on your part. It was a bad play on his part to block. His life total matters less than yours in this matchup. He shouldn't have fallen for it but it cost you nothing to attempt it. He was probably concerned you could lightning strike/elemental block his creature so he went for the better option. Best option was to wait for selesnya charm or unflinching courage and have a beater that's much harder for you to stop.

Game 2: He should have played into the possibility that he draws another charm or unflinching courage for lethal. Killing Chandra doesn't help him win the game, just lose it slower (which is what happened).

Did he ever get aggressive either game?

Game 1: I don't think I
have the right burn to finish off the smiter (It would be just perfect with a Spark Jolt and Lightning Strike. That's why I couldn't risk having him untapped with the smiter.
Game 2: It's really a hard choice for him, since he couldn't hit either me or Chandra with an elemental blocking his way. He had to remove the Chandra to prevent me from getting more cards (Or +1 later at his BTE for lethal)

If by aggressive you meant a stream of creatures, yeah. In fact, he has BTE chain going on after the smiter (Not sure why he postponed it. Maybe he didn't want to overextend into an Anger) and in both games, but thanks to me chaining scry, I was able to drop them all before they became a threat.

[Khaospawn]

Also annihilating fire seems great; Voice and Phoenix are two of the best cards against you; and at the end of the day I'm regularly going upstairs with Flames, so the instant aspect is nice.

I did live the dream last night with a 3-for-1 though >:)

Exiling Phoenix is a big game in the semi-mirror since I think it's Devotion Red's best card against you post-board.

Z, I think that this post alone just made me reconsider my devotion to...Devotion Red.

I'm sleeving up your current list for some testing. Thanks, buddy.

edit: I'm
going to put a 1-of foil Stormbreath in the board. Because fuck it, that's why.

[dpaine88]

Hahhaha after reading this whole thread and going "Hmm, you know, I'm going to give this deck a shot"

I scroll to the last post and theres Khaos doing the same damn thing

[Khaospawn]

Hahhaha after reading this whole thread and going "Hmm, you know, I'm going to give this deck a shot"

I scroll to the last post and theres Khaos doing the same damn thing

You're goddamn right.

I'm a sucker for any reason to grind a boot in G/W's smug elephant/elf face. Z, along with my nostalgic posts about last year, just pulled my mental trigger with that statement.

Am I a Manchurian Candidate?

[Helios]

The movie references tonight are killing me. First red with his obscure Schwarzenegger comedy, then Manchurian Candidate? What's next, Unbreakable?

[Khaospawn]

The movie references tonight are killing me. First red with his obscure Schwarzenegger comedy, then Manchurian Candidate? What's next, Unbreakable?

Actually, a Manchurian Candidate is a term used to describe "sleeper agents." Just like the supposed assassin of John Lennon, who was found completely unaware on a park bench reading The Catcher in the Rye. You speak a "trigger word" to somebody in a "hypnotic" state. They perform the deed linked to a trigger word and then resume consciousness and remember nothing.



But it was a decent movie too.

[Khaospawn]

First red with his obscure Schwarzenegger comedy,

I did reference Jingle All the Way tonight. You win the No-Prize.

[Helios]

If we're getting technical, the term originated from the novel the movie was based on. Because the protagonist was taken to Manchuria and brainwashed.

Ooh, yay, I love getting no prizes.

[dpaine88]

How do you guys typically deal with a early Voice of Resurgance? I find that and Reckoner a tough combo when playing against Naya, which much of my playtest group is on.

Oh and then fight Reckoner and one of my guys...yikes

But early voice seems to cause me to play bad and was looking for advice against this card in general

[Khaospawn]

If we're getting technical, the term originated from the novel the movie was based on. Because the protagonist was taken to Manchuria and brainwashed.

Ooh, yay, I love getting no prizes.

I'll give you a second based on your contribution of bonus knowledge to the Manchurian Candidate definition.

[Khaospawn]

How do you guys typically deal with a early Voice of Resurgance?

Annihilating Fire!



This is the unfortunate reason I want to play the Young Peezy deck.

[Helios]

Z and I discussed dropping to 1 Flames, so are we just running a singleton Fire main, or cutting mainboard Hammer?

[dpaine88]

lol you can play Fire in Devotion Red as well....

Kinda feel like Devotion Red would be better against GW but maybe not... Its easy to build a board then Fanatic against them or fly with Pheonix

[Helios]

Chandra falters + YP$ for infinite blocks though...

That's part of the reason I feel like Pyro red is actually better, because you aren't required to have a board presence for your endgame. Blocking in Devotion costs you damage down the road, and is rarely favorable (this is speculation. GW isn't a deck around here, so I haven't played against it).

[Khaospawn]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=120604#p120604:3i4rwftk]dpaine88 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:59 pm[/url:3i4rwftk]":3i4rwftk]lol you can play Fire in Devotion Red as well....

Kinda feel like Devotion Red would be better against GW but maybe not... Its easy to build a board then Fanatic against them or fly with Pheonix[/quote:3i4rwftk]
I also have a second motivation.

I was on YouTube watching some P-Sulli vids and I watched, rewatched, and pondered the awesomeness of his Koth Control list during the U/W Cawblade era. My god, it was the first "abstract," or to quote Z,"non-linear," Mono Red I'd ever seen.

I believe that Z is on to something on a scale that even P-Sulli may not even be on to. In fact, it's so powerful that I believe it can be played in Modern. And, after what Z said in the main thread today, I'm convinced. Z may have (or may not)
have been joking about Modern PyroRed, but I think it's that good. (For any FoS members interested in cool Mono Red ideas, check out ham's post in the Brewery in the "Non-Standard section.").

I'm ready to step it up, is all. I want to stop kidding myself and truly think with this deck. I'm usually pretty good at a few things - like hitting stuff, playing Lightning Bolts, fucking redheads, and drinking. And I do these well, but I've felt that if I applied myself in the slightest, I could do more. More of what, I dunno. But when I look at DevoRed and PyroRed, I see 2 versions of me: one version that's brawn and the other brain.

This is the time to play smarter. I wanted to be "Godzilla" for the longest time and just punch/firebreathe my way into victory. Now i just want to be Bruce Lee: small, fast, smart, and FUCKING AWESOME.

[F.I.A]

How do you guys typically deal with a early Voice of Resurgance? I find that and Reckoner a tough combo when playing against Naya, which much of my playtest group is on.

Oh and then fight Reckoner and one of my guys...yikes

But early voice seems to cause me to play bad and was looking for advice against this card in general

You would really want to kill them off as soon as possible, even if it's to send your Pyro straight to a certain death. Chance is, he won't stay around long when Reckoner is around anyway.

There's another tech against voice post-board by stealing and burning it. It's easy to generate a big Elemental when you've been making many a dozen 1/1s.

@Zemanjaski: I'm curious about this 3-to-1 you spoke of, so
do tell.

[zemanjaski]

I'm going to write up the matchup guide, in the form of:

Deck:
Matchup themes:
Key cards:
Key interactions:
Strategy:
Conclusion:

For example:

Deck: Blue White Control
Matchup themes: board presence against sweepers; sequencing plays to work around counterspells; managing planeswalkers
Key cards: supreme verdict, Sphinx's revelation, Jace Architect of Thought, Chandra's Phoenix, Chandra Pyromaster, Hammer of Purphoros
Key interactions: Azorius Charm with Chandra; Satyr with Jace, Magma Jet; Skullcrack
Strategy: aggro
Conclusion: favourable

With every section getting a detailed breakdown.

I was going to do:

- Rx aggro variants;
- Big Red/Boros;
- Rakdos control, Dega;
- UW and Esper Control; and
- GW aggro and midrange.

What am I forgetting?

[zemanjaski]

Oh the 3-for-1 was just against a bunch of mana elves, but it got an immediate concession.

[Helios]

What am I forgetting?

Junk
Monogreen
Big Gruul (dunno if that is Rx aggro persay)

That's all I can think of.

[RaidaTheBlade]

I don't know if you're necessarily forgetting it, but a definitive version of your current 75 would be super awesome of you

[zemanjaski]

Thanks Helios. Ill make it GWx midrange to cover bigger GW lists and Junk; then add RG ramp as well.

@ Raida

[deck]
Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sorceries
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Instants
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock

Lands
20 Mountain
3 Mutavault

Sideboard
2 Act of Treason
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Hammer of Purphoros
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Skullcrack[/deck]

[dpaine88]

lol you can play Fire in Devotion Red as well....

Kinda feel like Devotion Red would be better against GW but maybe not... Its easy to build a board then Fanatic against them or fly with Pheonix

I also have a second motivation.

I was on YouTube watching some P-Sulli vids and I watched, rewatched, and pondered the awesomeness of his Koth Control list during the U/W Cawblade era. My god, it was the first "abstract," or to quote Z,"non-linear," Mono Red I'd ever seen.

I believe that Z is on to something on a scale that even P-Sulli may not even be on
to. In fact, it's so powerful that I believe it can be played in Modern. And, after what Z said in the main thread today, I'm convinced. Z may have (or may not) have been joking about Modern PyroRed, but I think it's that good. (For any FoS members interested in cool Mono Red ideas, check out ham's post in the Brewery in the "Non-Standard section.").

I'm ready to step it up, is all. I want to stop kidding myself and truly think with this deck. I'm usually pretty good at a few things - like hitting stuff, playing Lightning Bolts, fucking redheads, and drinking. And I do these well, but I've felt that if I applied myself in the slightest, I could do more. More of what, I dunno. But when I look at DevoRed and PyroRed, I see 2 versions of me: one version that's brawn and the other brain.

This is the time to play smarter. I wanted to be "Godzilla" for the longest time and just punch/firebreathe my way into victory. Now i just want to be Bruce Lee: small, fast, smart, and FUCKING
AWESOME.

Thats awesome man, glad you are at that point in magic.

I like to think I am getting there. Originally, I was in the thought that most players would be better than me so I wanted to make the games as short as possible and rather straightforward. so I wouldn't let my opponent the opportunity to outplay me.

I want to get to the point where I want to outplay my opponents , but still am not at that level of confidence. This Pyro deck is certainly a big step in the right direction.

I found this section of a P Sully article and loved it

Obligatory Poker Analogy:
If the previous explanation was a little wordy or convoluted, the following will make sense to all you poker players out there. Let's say you are playing in a No Limit ring game against nine people who are so much better than you that it's disgusting. You know that they will outplay you on
every flop, so you'll be strung along on hands that you are losing and won't make very much money on that hands that you do win. In a situation like this, you should be more inclined to shove before the flop, since you are aware of all the math up front and it limits the other people's ability to outplay you. On the other hand, if you are the one awesome player at the table full of idiots, you try to get to the flop more often than you would in general, since your superior skill allows you to maximize gains and minimize losses against people who don't know odds, aren't very perceptive, or just plain old suck. To complete the analogy, PTQs are that ten-man table with nine buffoons, so you should play a deck that allows you to "get to the flop," so to speak, and outplay people who just aren't very good at the game.

[dpaine88]

Please include something regarding playing against Boros Reckoner in the guide =)

[dpaine88]

Extra motivation to run this instead... get to use all 4 of my Onslaught Shocks =D

[zemanjaski]

Since a lot of players are finding Devotion Red to be very tough and I'm wrecking it, ill cover that in more depth.

[Narcasus]

the 2 damage or traitorous instinct has been relevant all night it feels like through testing. Piloting this deck is far different than anything ive tried before, starting to get a feel and its a blast. I've gotten quite a few " you just got luck" comments tonight. annihilating fire has been huge as well in the mirror as well as b/g exiling them so he cant eat them or bring them back with whip.

[zemanjaski]

I get told I'm lucky all the time ~ it's not like I have multiple copies of the card in my deck so I can draw it or anything...

[Helios]

Like that analogy, dpaine.

Z, are you leaving the 3/20 land split?

[dpaine88]

Is there anyway to fit like 2 Stormbreath and a Mountain in the board? Figure can swap mountain with vault when sideboarding in Reckoner as added utility.

[Calamity]

Played a UW control deck sporting Thassa, frostburn weirds, and bident of thassa tonight. I wasn't able to get through. It felt bad wasting burn on their weirds but I couldn't get any damage through otherwise. Him dropping a Jace didn't help either... It was only 2 games so i dunno if it's a small sample size or I played bad or what. I didn't draw too bad for the most part.

Played another Naya midrange deck, went like 18 turns and I had 13 lands on the board at the end and almost won. Overloaded 2 mortars for a 2 for 1 and 3 for 1, and he still drew more 4/4's and reckoners and eventually blew me out with advent of the wurm.

Man my games have been rough. I dunno if my build sucks or if it's variance or what. I'm playing in the practice room, so maybe people are just doing crazy shit... I dunno it's really discouraging.

[Helios]

dpaine: What do you propose cutting? Maybe Skullcrack if the paper meta is more midrange than control; the control matchup is pretty good as it is.

Just to foster discussion, here are some hands I saw tonight. Since it was playtesting I kept all of them, just to see, but some felt loose and others felt like a trap. Thoughts?

2 Mountain, Young Pyromancer, Chandra’s Phoenix, 2 Lightning Strike, Chandra
2 Mountain, 2 Cackler, Shock, Phoenix, Chandra
2 Mountain, 2 Ash Zealot, Magma Jet, Flames, Hammer

3 Mountain, Mutavault, Cackler, Firedrinker, Flames of the Firebrand
3 Mountain, Lightning Strike, Flames of the Firebrand, 2 Chandra’s Phoenix

4 Mountain, Cackler, Young Pyromancer, Magma Jet
4 Mountain, Cackler, Shock, Chandra
4 Mountain, Mutavault, Shock, Magma Jet
4 Mountain, 2 Firedrinker, Shock

[zemanjaski]

Against an unknown opponent, I'm only going to mulligan 4 Mountain, Mutavault, Shock, Magma Jet. Even Magma Jet can't help you that much.

[Helios]

Good point. 4 Mountain, 2 Firedrinker, 1 Shock felt like a trap to me as well...you're really dependent on your draws at that point. Double 1-drop is good and all, but drawing mountains/shocks/1 drops probably means you get shat on against everything but control.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah it's very fringe.

These decisions are a lot easier when you know what your facing.

[Helios]

Absolutely. There's a part of me that likes going 2nd (not that it ever happens by choice) game 1, just because you get to see what your opponent is playing and sculpt your game plan. At FNM, when my opponent went Temple of Silence -> Temple of Triumph I had to resist the urge to giggle. Oh, tap lands.