Dies to Removal

Will post a Primer / decklist on my current mono red dragon list either tonight or tomorrow.

Rcwraspy's a lot smarter then me, so just listen to him for the time being. That was more of a way of getting into dialogue with him.

Besides, you're not stuck with one setup. Try the shocks for a while and if you miss the scry, switch back.

(Aka, sorry, didnt mean to confuse you e.e)

Sorry, haven't played much MTG the past couple of weeks and this thread fell off my radar. Didn't mean to ignore this discussion.

For starters, no, I'm not "smarter" than you. At least I have no reason to believe so.

Returning to Magma Jet in these devotion lists.

I LOVE MAGMA JET.

It's an amazing card, and I'll put it in any deck that it makes sense in. But re-read Zem's Magma Jet article. There's a section that talks
about what decks don't even want to run the card.

You mentioned Magma Jet playing well with Chandra, but Tyrael's list didn't include Chandra, Pyromaster. It was a 22 or 23 land list that curved 8-12-8-4. In my opinion, a Fanatic of Mogis devotion red deck that runs BTE and Ash Zealot and curves out at Fanatic isn't exactly AIR but it's the next fastest red deck. Other than chaining into a Magma Jet on the end of a Burning Tree, you'll be hard pressed to find the mana for it in turns 1-4 if you're curving out.

Shock, on the other hand, lets you play with Ash Zealot's first strike and still drop a 2-drop on T3, lets you clear a creature and still drop a 1-drop on T2, gives you another 4 1-drops for T1, etc.

If this deck were even just a little more mid-range or "grindy" then I'd say yes to Magma Jet. But it's the next fastest red deck to AIR and wants to use all its mana each turn. We're also a little too low on the curve to take advantage of a
card like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx where Magma Jet is excellent at using otherwise wasted mana.

Shock instead of Magma Jet is definitely not the right call for a LOT of decks. But for the list I was running, which was almost identical to what Tyrael posted, my opinion is that Shock is a better fit.

Others may disagree, and of course your mileage may vary. Definitely try them both out and try to be objective about it. Whenever you have either in hand, ask yourself if anything would be different if it were the other.

EDIT: Also, think about the consistency of the deck. A list like this running 30 or more creatures all 1-4cmc and all as 4x copies is inherently very consistent. Obviously the thing that puts Magma Jet over Shock is the Scry 2 (without it, it's strictly worse than Shock) -- but is that necessary in such a consistent deck to begin with?

rc, that actually makes a lot of sense!

I will test out Shock one of these days

rc, that actually makes a lot of sense!

I will test out Shock one of these days

Well, it's not really my work. Here's a quote from Zeman's article on Magma Jet. Note at the bottom he references Devotion decks and the desire to find another copy of Fanatic. There are many lists that are running Fanatic and many lists that call themselves "Devotion." Our deck, the 8-12-8-4 aggro list, feels more like sligh or sledgehammer lists that curve into Fanatic rather than pure Devotion lists. The way I play the deck fits more into the RDW discussion above that in Z's quote. But you may find yourself playing it differnetly.

There is a lag
effect between making the Scry, and actually seeing the benefit. This lag might be effectively zero (the end of turn Magma Jet) to more than two full turns away (even if you bottom two cards, it may take longer than that before you can make use of your new spells) – so getting full value from each Magma Jet involves both making correct Scry decisions and having enough time for those decisions to benefit you.

Time is why Turtenwald and Duke eschewed Magma Jet in their hyper-aggressive Red Deck Wins (RDW) variant from the start of the season. Their RDW was designed to exaggerate the number of turn four and five goldfish wins possible, and Magma Jet fits very poorly into that strategy. Magma Jet only does as much damage as Shock, for twice the cost. When your deck’s success is predicated on quickly establishing a board presence and instigating a race, you want your interactive removal to be as cheap as possible, allowing you to remove a blocker while adding another creature to the board to increase your
clock. Shock is much better for this than Magma Jet. While they did opt for a more expensive burn spell, the choice was Lightning Strike, which imoprtantly does an extra point of damage, allowing it to remove a greater range of blockers (or opponents – red mages aren’t usually picky). Their deck typically won or lost in four to six turns, which is often not long enough to see the full value out of the Scry half of Magma Jet. They elected for the more efficient or powerful alternatives. Magma Jet wouldn’t help their deck if it finds a Burning Tree Emissary (BTE) on turn six – this deck wants the BTE in the opening hand. In contrast, the longer the expected game, the greater the number of instances where a specific card, or combination of cards will allow you to win through an increasingly hostile board state. The Devotion Red variant likes to run Magma Jet to allow it to find additional copies of Fanatic of Mogis to win through stalled board states – this is an example of where the ability to filter your deck
is at its strongest.

[deck]
Creatures (30)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Firefist Striker
4 Rakdos Cackler

Spells (7)
4 Lightning Strike
3 Shock

Lands (23)
2 Mutavault
21 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Flames of The Firebrand
2 Peak Eruption
2 Act of Treason
2 Skullcrack
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Burning Earth
[/deck]

Took my devotion aggro brew to FNM and the saterday standard tourney, going 1-3 and 3-1 respectively.

Friday:

1st matchup: American control

Game 1: I lost the die roll. I hit everything on curve (cackler-zealot-phoenix) until he verdicted and overwhelmed me with Niv-Mizzet. I flooded like a motherfucker this game.
Game 2: I curved out perfectly and he was getting bad draws. He cast azorius charm turn 3 and Thassa turn 4 to try and turn the tides but I got a clean kill on him on turn 5.
Game 3:
Once again, I flooded. He managed to counter the only hammer I had and killed me with Elspeth's ultimate while he was at 3 life. I had 1 chance to topdeck a burn, I obviously got another land. Ugh.

0-1

Matchup 2: G/U Ramp

Game 1: He had a slow hand but managed to flood the board with Caryatids by turn 3, creating a wall that was impossible for me to get through. Chandra's Phoenix couldn't finish the deal before he had the mana to cast Polukranos/Reverent Hunter and stomp me.
Game 2: He had an insane curve, casting the dreaded Polukranos on turn 2, leaving me to stall the board until I could drop a big Fanatic, slapping him with Phoenix every turn. I managed to stabilize with 2 Reckoners but he overloaded Cyclonic Rift and swung for the win on turn 5, dumping the extra mana into Polukranos to make him big enough to swing for lethal. Goddamn Nykthos.

0-2

Matchup 3: Bye

FML

0-3

Matchup 4: G/W Lifegain deck

A janky deck made by a buddy of mine, it had a few decent ideas but as a
whole it stumbled too much. He managed to catch me off guard in game 2 by dropping 2 Witchstalkers but a perfect curve by me in games 1 and 3 prevented him from building up his whole strategy.

End result: 1-3

Saturday:

UWG control:

The same friend I faced yesterday was back with yet another brew, but this one was a lot stronger.

Game 1: I mull to 3 (1st hand had 6 lands in it, every subsequent mull left me with a landless hand) and he has an answer for everything I can throw at him. I run out of gas really fast and scoop once he manages to cast Elspeth while still being at 20 life. Bleh.
Game 2: I know he had Voice and Luxodon Smiters in his sideboard so I side in a few extra burn cards and Act of Treason, never saw em. I did also side in Burning Earth and they won this game for me. I kept a hand which was 4xland-2x B-Earth-1xAsh Zealot. I manage to draw a Phoenix on turn 2 and begin the beatdown, dropping a Burning Earth on turn 5 and another one on turn 6 after he D-sphered the first one.
He realises casting the Supreme Verdict that he had in hand would kill him and he lets me kill him next turn like a gentleman.
Game 3: I had a sweet curve (Zealot-Reckoner-Phoenix) with him only being able to play a Voice, which I shocked, followed by another Voice. They didn't do him any good as blocking me was nearly useless for him anyway. He gets mana screwed (only 1 white mana) and is unable to cast the verdict he was keeping in his hand. I burn him out on turn 6 with a well-timed Shock.

1-0

This guy was returning to magic after taking a long break, and his deck showed it. He was playing some kindof janky mono black extort deck but I managed to trample all over him 2 times in a row. Nothing to report here, I curved out perfectly and he had no answers except for a stray doom blade. He was a nice guy tho, I gave him some advice on how to improve his deck afterwards.

2-0

W/U Weenie

Game 1: He loads up the board with Soldiers of the Pantheon and flyers, detaining my mono colored creatures
and ultimately finishing me off with Ajani. I Curved out just fine but I was unable to get past his Soldiers and I didn't draw a single burn spell.
Game 2: More of the same, I sided in more burn (Flames of the Firebrand & Mizzium Mortars) but I flood like hell and get stomped by his detain shenanigans and brave the elements once again. Again, I did not draw a SINGLE burn spell. I was kinda pissed afterwards as this would have been an easy matchup had I actually drawn FtF (all those 1 thougness creatures!) but oh well, variance.

2-1

B/R Aggro

Game 1: I had a very good curve, dropping a Cackler, Zealot, Satyr and Phoenix on turn 1-4 and his hand is simply slower. Ash Zealot was a real star in this match as she could block pretty much everything he could play (except for Mogis, of course). We race damage and I manage to burn him out on turn 5.
Game 2: I curve out fine but his Xathrid Necromancers combined with a Whip of Erebos keeps him coming back for more. Thanks to the extra burn from my
sideboard I manage to stabilize his endless assault(thanks Z!). However, he keeps drawing more and more gas (which he can use twice, thanks to the whip). This forces me to play even more defensively and he manages to close it off with a whipped Spike Jester into a Mogis, with him being at 3 life and me failing to topdeck a burn/fanatic. Bad luck.
Game 3: I mull to 6. We curve out evenly but I manage to burn all of his creatures, forcing him to play defensive with Xathrid Necromancer. He floods and even though he managed to Whip back everything he lost he doesn't draw any more creatures except for a lone Rackdos Cackler and thus I manage to get him down eventually after hitting him full force 4 turns in a row with Ashley-Phoenix-Mutavault. I got really lucky here as I was only topdecking lands after the 5th turn (this deck floods a lot for some reason) and thus having a subpar creature base after he doom bladed my reckoner. Phew.

This guy had been behaving like a dick all day and I swore to myself I
would beat him. So, goals were met.

End result: 3-1

I'm still not very satisfied with the deck's inconsistent performance but I feel that the change from jet to shock was for the better, as it allowed me to keep up with the faster B/R deck even if I was on the draw. Any MB/SB suggestions are welcome. I am looking to change it to Yarpus' R/G brew over time but this will be a matter of weeks I think.

I might take the Satyrs out as so far I have been forced to sideboard them almost every time and they were actually the reason I lost against a few decks too. Decisions...

[deck]
Creatures (28)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firefist Striker
2 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis

Burn (10)
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock

Land
22 Mountain

Sideboard
3 Skullcracks
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Act of Treason
3 Frostburn Weird
2 Peak Eruption
3 Mizzium Mortars

I have 2 more Reckoners coming in the mail (hopefully today or tomorrow), and I am getting 2 more RSF today. FFS will be coming out when I get those cards.
[/deck]

Took this list to the Thursday Standard "win a box" tournament last night with 14 players, and went 2-2. Somehow I managed to come away with 5 Theros packs.

Round 1 U/B Control? Something the guy said he had just thrown together. Won 2-0
I steamrolled him both games.

Round 2 U/Wb Control piloted by a very good player. Won 2-1
Game 1 I curved out nicely, and won pretty
easily despite the 1 revelation he cast.
Game 2 I got flooded, and he got 2 Blood Barons out, and I could't do anything.
Game 3 He mulliganed, and I kept a 1 land hand. Mountain, Cackler, Cackler, Satyr, Zealot, Lighting Strike, Skullcrack. I got in some early damage with my 1 drops before he got out Blood Baron. Turns 2, 3, & 4 I drew Skullcrack, Phoenix, & Fanatic, and it was turn 5 before I got my 2nd land, but then 4 land in a row. The Skullcracks saved my ass. Hitting him 6 and preventing life gain for 2 turns in a row I was able to bring him down enough that the Fanatic was able to finish him off. Most fun game I have played in a long time.

Round 3 Mono B Devo also piloted by a very good player. Loss 0-2
I basically got destroyed 2 straight games. This guy won the tournament, and didn't lose a single game. I couldn't deal with the army 2/1 MoW tokens.

Round 4 RedDevo another good player. Loss 1-2
All 3 games could have gone either way. All 3 games ended with the winning player's
life at <5 This match actually went over the 40 minute time limit for the round.

Overall I had a blast, and picked up some cards. Hope to go to FNM tonight.

So... What were your pack pulls?

Crap. Got a Whip of Erebos, Arbor Colossus, Temple of Triumph, Fabled Hero, and Reverent Hunter. My opponent from the mirror match pulled Elspeth, and Stormbreath Dragon.

Been there too buddy, better luck next time.

I'm only two months into MtG and plan on taking this list to a tournament this saturday. Should I be playing 4 FDS and 3 Fanatics. Is it preference or is one fundamentally better than the other. I'm only playing 3 FDS because i often find myself in bad spots with that card. Also any advice for a noob would be appreciated. Thanks.

Cackler 4
FDS 3
Ashley 4
BTE 4
FFS 3
CP 4
Reckoner 3
Fanatic 4

Lightning Strike 4
Shock 4

Mountain 21
Mutavault 2

Sideboard:
Reckoner 1
FW 3
AoT 3
Mortars 3
Skullcrack 2
BE 2
Hammer 1

Please use deck tags and write out the whole name...

The list looks pretty ok. 4 Firedrinker Satyrs and 3 Fanatic of Mogis are better, you most likely side out the Satyrs game 2-3.

Throwing this out there for discussion:

[deck]4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Boros Guildgate
11 Mountain

4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge

2 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars

Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Last Breath
3 Boros Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Firedrinker Satyr
[/deck]
-----
Against monoblack:
+4 Satyr, +2 Assemble, +2 Chained
-4 Dragon, -2 Weird, -2 Mortars

Against Esper/UW:
+4 Satyr, +2 Assemble, +3 Charm
-4 Reckoner, -2 Chained, -2 Mortars, -1 Fanatic

Against monoblue:
+2 Chained, +2 Mortars, +2 Last Breath
-4 Cackler, -2 Zealot

Against white weenie:
+2 Chained, +2 Mortars, +2 Last Breath
-4 Cackler, -1 Purphoros, -1 Hammer

Against monored aggro (heavy 1
drop version):
+2 Chained, +2 Mortars, +2 Last Breath
-2 Dragon, -2 Fanatic, -1 Purphoros, -1 Hammer,
(I've been experimenting with this. Cackler usually stays leashed just to threaten to trade with their X/1's. I used to side out the Cacklers rather than the Dragon/Fanatic but I've been testing this out and it's been fine - you don't need an abundance of win cons)

Against Gx devotion:
+2 Chained, +2 Mortars, +2 Assemble
-4 Cackler, -2 Zealot

Against mirror:
+2 Chained, +2 Mortars
-4 Cackler

I like that list a lot actually.

Only thing is I have found Assemble to be fairly bad against the control decks running 4x Jace.

Since you never want to have more than 1 Hammer, would it make sense to swap 1 for the 3rd Mizzium Mortors?

I am just getting into this deck as I really do prefer creature decks so take my suggestions with a grain of salt.

I am very glad to see this deck get raised from the dead just as I click it though!


Have you only tried white splash or have you considered green? I do love playing with Domri

Domri is fun, but that's the only good green IMO. White just has sooo much better SB options

A guy from MTGS posted a similar list, being able to squeeze in Wear//Tear

[deck]4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Boros Guildgate
11 Mountain

4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge
2 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Last Breath
2 Boros Charm
2 Wear // Tear
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Chained to the Rocks
4 Firedrinker Saty[/deck]

Slightly different take on R/w Devotion. 4 Chained mainboard, Legion's Initiative, and Aurelia for some extra "f*** you" at the end of the curve.

[deck]
Creature (28)
4x Ash Zealot
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Frostburn Weird
4x Boros Reckoner
4x Fanatic of Mogis
2x Purphoros, God of the Forge
4x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Aurelia, the Warleader

Enchantment (6)
4x Chained to the Rocks
1x Hammer of Purphoros
1x Legion's Initiative

Sorcery (2)
2x Mizzium Mortars

Land (24)
2x Boros Guildgate
10x Mountain
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Triumph

Sideboard (15)
2x Assemble the Legion
2x Boros Charm
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
1x Legion's Initiative
2x Mizzium Mortars
4x Skullcrack
2x Wear / Tear
[/deck]

So basically no more Rakdos Cackler and instead some more Chains and 2 Aurellia?

Is it not even worth running a one drop at all now?

BTW From Big Boros I have loved Legions's Initiative.

It also has a lot more synergy with this deck since you can activate it with a Fanatic out and do a shitload of damage when he comes back into play.

I would never play a list without one drops.... How are you going to beat control/mono black. We are the aggressor in these matchups.

I would never play a list without one drops.... How are you going to beat control/mono black. We are the aggressor in these matchups.

Your list has 4x one-drop. Are you going to mulligan every hand that doesn't have a Cackler in it against control/mono black?

Either you have 8+ one-drops and plan to curve 1-2-3-4 or you concede that your deck's power comes later in the game.

The list has either 5 or 6 lands that come into play tapped (4 Temples and 1 to 2 Guildgates). It also has 4 Nykthos. That means 40% of your lands can't cast a T1 play anyway. So now not only are you going to mulligan to a Cackler, which is a 4x, but also to a 15x or 14x untapped land.

I'd much rather take more powerful spells than a one-drop in a list that explodes
turns 4-6 and takes advantage of T1 CIPT lands.

EDIT: Missed the 4x Satyr in the SB, that I assume you bring in against those matchups you mentioned. My numbers discussion is a bit moot, then, but my feeling on 1-drops in this list remains unchanged. We do our damage turns 4-6, and it's BIG damage.

I and my teammate have played this deck a lot.

I'm not a fan of the white splash because your colors are so inconsistent. With the green splash, BTE functions as an additional manafixer and Domri is amazing.

I don't like maindeck one-drops much, but you absolutely should board them in against black because game 1 is pretty bad. I was actually testing last night both sides of the matchup with my friend as he was thinking of running it in LA and we came to the conclusion that Desecration Demon is the problem. You can't sack creatures to it because devotion and it walls stormbreath dragon while adding to devotion for gray merchant and simply being a fast clock.

If you want info on the green deck, Frank Karsten wrote an article on CFB on it and the top 4 list from the GP was apparently copied from Ben Stark after he won some Florida tourney with the deck. I'm pretty sure most people here are on the boros plan, but
if there's anyone interested in the Gruul Variant, I can give sideboarding advice. And if Huey's Deck becomes popular, 1-of polis crusher in the board goes from bad idea to next level tech.

Aurelia is also the most unnecessary card ever.

Aurelia is also the most unnecessary card ever.

I'd normally agree but she's actually been working out fairly well in this build so far.

What were you just lamenting with the black matchup? Desecration Demon ruins your day? Getting 2 attacks off 1 sac has worked wonders (not to mention the .01% of the time you get the lucksack 3 attack step with LI+Aurelia, but that's just an aside).

In a world where it's Desecration Demon or Supreme Verdict, The ability to drop a hasty creature that lets everything else on my board attack twice before they wrath again is actually not horrible.

Was just thinking that with the green splash you can get some HUGE Mistcutter Hydras =) Seem good against a few current decks.

Was just thinking that with the green splash you can get some HUGE Mistcutter Hydras =) Seem good against a few current decks.

also gives you access to Xenagos, the Reveler, which can further increase the size of Mistcutter.

and helps shore up the control matchups, which seem like they might be hard for this kind of deck

Finally got some playtesting in with this deck and holy shit it is the nuts!!!

Decently fast, consisttent and very powerful.

W or G splash? The 1-Drop version or AotG with 0 1-Drops?

P.S. I'm glad you found the list which suits you, Devo Rx has some disgusting plays .

Going W right now for starters though I just LOVE Domri as a card, though it isn't that great at the moment. Chained seems more important.

I was testing the 1-drop version. Seemed fine having him in there to hedge vs control and he's a solid turn 1 play. Later on when you have a Nkthos out you can basically cast Cackler for free and activate it.

Thanks MDU- I still watch your videos cause it helps me so much with my plays regardless of the deck I am playing and the Big Boros deck definitly requires a level of play and sequencing that I am not at yet in my very young MTG Career.

So far my favorite is turn 2 Ash Zealot, Turn 3 BTE into Hammer turn 4 Hasted Purphoros!!

Anytime I have BTE and Hammer right away or a Nykthos, it feels hard to lose.

I'm also in favor for the 1-Drop variant, only issue is that it make running AotG on the side slightly harder (not sure I like AotG on the side with Devo list...).

Could you post your list and SB?

AoTG seems silly when you are running 12 creatures mainboard (your main devotion enablers at that) that will die to it as well

Think of it like control running fiendslayer paladin and supreme. The wall forces them to overcommit into your wrath. In this case, weird and Ashley with weird surviving the wrath. BTE is very sandbaggable since you can hold it and not lose tempo when you play it later.

Granted, I've never played the 1-drop version cause I've always been on the R/g train.

That actually makes a lot of sense, LP

<-TotesGenius

R/G Monsters is actually one of the few decks I don't mind losing to because when it curves out it's almost like a piece of art

[deck]4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Boros Guildgate
11 Mountain

4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge

2 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars

Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Last Breath
4 Boros Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Firedrinker Satyr[/deck]

This is what I am playing but its Erik Smith's list, not mine.

Two R/W Devo in Top 8 at SCG Las Vegas. Not bad, and it's certainly gained my attention.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=61377

All the things.

lolwut. Why did they bother posting a 710th place deck?

Probably to serve as a poster child of how not to build a deck...

He finished 7-1 in the standard portion of the invitational. The 710th place is a misnomer.

List taken off tcg, apparently top16 a PE

[deck]4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Fanatic of Mogis
3 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Rakdos Cackler
Creatures [27]
2 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Legion's Initiative
4 Magma Jet
Spells [9]
12 Mountain
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
Lands [24]
SIDEBOARD
4 Boros Charm
3 Chained to the Rocks
1 Glare of Heresy
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Skullcrack[/deck]