Dies to Removal

Tom Ross, Brian Braun-Duin, Huey Jensen, Reid Duke, ... are all players that frequent SCG Opens and these are all respected magic 'pros'

Yeah, the first Open I played at, Wraptor, EFro, Huey, and Kibler all scrubbed out. The quality of opens has gone up dramatically over the last year.

You do yourself and everyone else a disservice by thinking your much smarter talking down about every event you don't play in.

At the same time, I wouldn't be results orientated, I'd just test the deck and see how much you do/don't like it.

If I was being purely results orientated, I'd say devotion red is the best deck ever because I'm something like 40-7 in competitve events including wins vs. several pros, some multiple times. The reality is that I just know my deck better then everyone else, I draw well, and by the nature of my deck I mulligan about 1/4 as much as everyone else.

With the burn deck, it's possible that eidolons just a good fit. It's also possible that the pilot hit all the right matchups and the card is mediocre; but really, to win a
tourney, you have to get lucky and/or hit the right matchups anyways so you'll all just have to put in the work and figure it out.

The problem with the logic been exhibited is that is entirely ignorant of actual data.

1 player did well in 1 event with maindeck Eidolon. That is not statistically more relevant than the countless results with other variations on the deck, not even close.

This is exactly the same as everyone losing their shit over the Toil // Trouble variant that came 2nd at the GP, when the two other lists in the top 8 and the four other lists in the Top 32 where all standard versions. You cannot derive anything meaningful from the that result other than it warrants further testing; the same is true of Eidolon AND I HAVE TESTED IT.

You do yourself and everyone else a disservice by thinking your much smarter talking down about every event you don't play in.

That's actually not what I am doing and if you took longer than a second to think about it you would realise that.

Since JiN hit MTGO, every Standard Daily event posted except for one has had one or more 4-0 lists with maindeck Eidolon.

They all used to have Ash Zealot too and that wasn't as good either.

yes but you're the only one who cares about judging cards under a criteria where results don't matter

if eidolon is putting up consistent numbers, that means it is good in standard, and you stubbornly trying to hold to your pre-release evaluation won't mean anything to anyone but you

but i have gone over this with you for other cards before (in tier one decks no less), i understand it is an exercise in futility, i mostly like to post about these things to keep you honest and let the other members make their own decisions based on results

Fair enough. I just know that YP is better; that doesn't mean people won't have success with Eidolon ~ infact, if all anyone is playing is Eidolon in the Burn shell, then invariably all results with the deck will feature Eidolon

Fair enough. I just know that YP is better; that doesn't mean people won't have success with Eidolon ~ infact, if all anyone is playing is Eidolon in the Burn shell, then invariably all results with the deck will feature Eidolon

yeah, but people will cut it for another creature if it isn't doing as well. the new card excitement will only last so long, and then if eidolon is still there, it's because it is the preferred creature.

I tested eidolon and I actually found it quite good. I don't mind admitting I was wrong about it.

Gonna test Eidolon in a sligh build tonight

early results have been exceedingly positive (especially vs U/W control)

List for reference:

[deck]Heroic Sligh[/deck]

I tested eidolon and I actually found it quite good. I don't mind admitting I was wrong about it.

How did it fare against little aggro decks in testing? Honest question.

Not great. I prefer SFD post board I think.

Played against Naya and Mono Green yesterday and I never boarded the eidolon out

the first naya player was ready to throw his cards at me once I dropped the second copy game 3 lol, he couldn't play any of his combat tricks without killing himself

It was absolutely terrible vs Jund tho, that damn Courser

Good when you're ahead. I played vs mono u (suprise red splash!) And didn't like it on the draw.

Agreed, Keith. I played it maindeck last night at FNM.When you're ahead, he's great. Pretty terrible when behind. I'm not sold on him yet and I'm thinking that YP$ may just be the better choice.

Against small agro, Eidolon turns the game into a pretty merciless race (I call it the "Turbo button" ). WLH and Searing Blood are key cards in that matchup obviously. I would definitely board it out for SFD though, by a huge margin.

There's a tempo element as well. You play Eidolon, so they take the first damage on their turn. Burn has a ton of instants, so you can usually just pass your next turn. Often you can then choose to either trade it in combat or let them burn themselves a second time during their next turn before you do anything yourself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT claiming Eidolon is better than YP vs. small agro, but I think it's playable G1 and you can board it out g2. The big issue with this card is Midrange (Jund, Junk, BG), not small agro IMO. That said, did you notice Jund monsters runs around 20 spells
that trigger Eidolon...? Myself I need more testing experience here. On MTGO, the midrange decks are together less than 10% of the meta atm, so I'm willing to risk it as it stands, while ready to switch back to YP any time...

EDIT: I just finished my DE 3-1, Hexproof (once) playing against Black Aggro (twice) and White agro (once) - poor me! and I can confirm the above.... One problem I realize with SFD vs. White is that between Keening apparition, Banisher Priest and Judges Familiar, they can throw quite some spanner in your works...

I think Eidolon is important for the top 3 decks:

1) black
2) uw
3) mirror

I had 4 mirrors at my GPT today (won all four) and whoever dropped this eidolon first had a huge advantage.

The reason why eidolon weeks at all is that every deck runs mostly 2-3 cmc spells. It's really only green ramp decks that run less than 18

I like Eidolon against UW a lot. I don't like him against MB as much because there's other cards I'd board in against them and they play a lot more removal, reducing the chance he'll be a game-breaker. I'm very unsure how he is in the mirror. Since his effect is symmetrical, it seems to me that he's just as good as he is against the other decks you have to race; good when you're ahead, bad when you're behind. I don't want to maindeck a win-more over a card that is consistently powerful. I will, however, sideboard this as my new anti-control creature of choice. The card is also incredible against Naya Hexproof.

@ Zenblitz: Sure, but that doens't mean aggro can't kill you before Eidolon kills them....

@ Brainsick Hater: Eidolon is bonkers against Black Devotion! It's not a game changer, but he demands removal and still causes 2 damage which is REALLY nice. In the mirror he's quite good and I'd take him over any other creature tbh. Mirror is a psycho war, though, and you never know how your opp sideboards...

I think Eidolon is important for the top 3 decks:

1) black
2) uw
3) mirror

I had 4 mirrors at my GPT today (won all four) and whoever dropped this eidolon first had a huge advantage.

^this, except Eidolon isn't critical vs Bx Devotion though he helps since he usually represents 2 damage + discard a removal (I personally prefer YP$ here and only like Eidolon on the draw play (sorry its too early)).

@BrainsickHater: Eidolon is good in the mirror because once you cast him you can just stop playing spells and just keep turning him sideways with vaults until they deal with him or die in 10 or less turns.

... Drop a Chandra into the mix for added fun

I was very impressed with it today. Stormbreath won everytime I cast it too.

I think Eidolon is important for the top 3 decks:

1) black
2) uw
3) mirror

I had 4 mirrors at my GPT today (won all four) and whoever dropped this eidolon first had a huge advantage.

^this, except Eidolon isn't critical vs Bx Devotion though he helps since he usually represents 2 damage + discard a removal (I personally prefer YP$ here and only like Eidolon on the draw play (sorry its too early)).

@BrainsickHater: Eidolon is good in the mirror because once
you cast him you can just stop playing spells and just keep turning him sideways with vaults until they deal with him or die in 10 or less turns.

Hadn't thought about forcing my opponent to deal with him. I really like that plan though, thanks for clearing things up for me!

Agreed, Keith. I played it maindeck last night at FNM.When you're ahead, he's great. Pretty terrible when behind. I'm not sold on him yet and I'm thinking that YP$ may just be the better choice.

YP is better in the MD IMHO.

I'm not liking YP$ at the moment. Too durdly in the mirror, lines up badly against golgari charm and jace.

YP$ is REALLY good against Jace and Golgari Charm...?

YP$ is REALLY good against Jace and Golgari Charm...?

How do you figure? I mean +1 jace stops them from drawing cards which is huge, but it also blanks all of our tokens... and golgari charm just wipes them outright...

Control usually doesn't bother +1'ing Jace, AoT vs burn, that's why I think Aodh calls it good

Also, a Golgari Charm on your tokens is a charm that's not going towards your nearest enchanted mountain ifyouknowwhatImean

Not for me, but it might be a play style thing.

Right. A Planeswalker that HAS to +1 and keep your 2/1 at bay (as a 1/1) instead of drawing 2 cards is weak. And a 2-mana answer for your 2/1 creature instead of getting back a demon or killing an Assemble is also weak.

I said it's not for me. Ymmv.

The fact that you're forced to interact with jace rather than going to the dome bothers me.

Edit: i meant attacking jace. I realize this was unclear. Sorry.

Who's forced to interact with Jace? I almost never do.

You either attack them for one a turn or keep jace from getting to ultimate.

I'm not crazy about either.

Oh, me neither, haha. How does EotGR change the situation?

if you play YP, they tick jace up and you have to either kill them or have to keep jace in check.

If you play eidolon, your just trying to kill them and he interacts profitbably with jace in that his triggers both threaten their life total or jace without you having to put as much effort into either. Eidolon basically puts more onus on the opponent to make tough decisions. And depending on wether they try to plus or go for cards, informs your choices more.

Like with YP, they're locked into a decision tree which has it's advantages, but puts you in the decision room giving you more room for error where they other way, they're acting first which is something they do NOT want to be doing which plays to your advantage.