Dies to Removal

ham claimed being third-party survivor like ages ago.

You're really focused, mr. Scum Hunter

ham role-claim

I'm not scum, and I know Red's not on my team because reasons.

I know you declined to answer to this already, but I really think you should. Do it. Independents are generally anti-town, so I'm going to lynch you either way. May as well try to convince me not to.

Ok, seems fine. I asked Pie to make me a self-aligned serial killer. He chose self-aligned and gave me a survivor role with
an alternate ability that I can choose, but it leaves me unprotected.

My best chance to live through the game is to play the odds and go pro-town from the start. I cast my vote for DK, the player who seemed scummiest and has remained so. Finding scum seems a faster avenue to victory than hiding behind ever-shrinking numbers of townies.

etc.

ham explaining his win-con

I win if I'm alive when any other faction achieves their win condition, or if I'm the last player alive (nudge wink).

Edit: Did Ham just claim self aligned?

Damn Red, Guess I did. You are OK with that?.....Cause we need to know if he is self aligned and how many at start of game. I call this claim BS.

I count six non-town players. That leaves 3 real town players. No way there are more than 1 of each class beyond scum or faction.

He said those other factions may or may not exist. I'm guessing we've got 2 scum, Ham neutral, and the rest town. Maybe a Cult leader.

He said those other factions may or may not exist. I'm guessing we've got 2 scum, Ham neutral, and the rest town. Maybe a Cult leader.

Did not see anything of the sorts in the rules claiming they may or may not exist. Show me if wrong.

He said those other factions may or may not exist. I'm guessing we've got 2 scum, Ham neutral, and the rest town. Maybe a Cult leader.

There's no cult. I agree with your guess - that's almost certainly what we've got.

I suppose you're talking about this post? I'm going to put this off just one more time. Please list the questions you want me to answer and tell me why it's a problem that I ignored them.

[Way more
words than necessary.]

So there was just one question? Why are you scum?

He said those other factions may or may not exist. I'm guessing we've got 2 scum, Ham neutral, and the rest town. Maybe a Cult leader.

There's no cult. I agree with your guess - that's almost certainly what we've got.

I suppose you're talking about this post? I'm going to put this
off just one more time. Please list the questions you want me to answer and tell me why it's a problem that I ignored them.

[Way more words than necessary.]

So there was just one question? Why are you scum?

takes way to many posts to ask what the question is when it's obvious.

Yep.

He said those other factions may or may not exist. I'm guessing we've got 2 scum, Ham neutral, and the rest town. Maybe a Cult leader.

There's no cult. I agree with your guess - that's almost certainly what we've got.

Well, how do you know there's no cult?

He said those other factions may or may not exist. I'm guessing we've got 2 scum, Ham neutral, and the rest town. Maybe a Cult leader.

There's no cult. I agree with your guess - that's almost certainly what we've got.

Well, how do you know there's no cult?

as copied from mod post of rules,
Town, Mafia, Self-Aligned (Third Party), Werewolf, Alien, Cult.

Stardust missed a fact from the OP?

I didn't miss that. But there's no cult. Well, there's no cult unless there's no mafia. I suppose that's possible.

takes way to many posts to ask what the question is when it's obvious.

I only wanted you to admit to being misleading when asking for my response. Thank you for your cooperation.

I'll get to that early this week. Maybe today, probably tomorrow.

I didn't miss that. But there's no cult. Well, there's no cult unless there's no mafia. I suppose that's possible.

Please explain why this is true. Keep in mind, I don't even have one completed game under my belt.

I didn't miss that. But there's no cult. Well, there's no cult unless there's no mafia. I suppose that's possible.

takes way to many posts to ask what the question is when it's obvious.

I only wanted you to admit to being misleading when asking for my response. Thank you for your cooperation.

I'll get to that early this week. Maybe today, probably tomorrow.

Complete load of crap. I asked you directly in a simple sentence multiple times "why are you voting me?". You are handwaving BAD this game and delaying responses for
time when you haven't a case for it at all. The OP says Mafia and cult in the same sentence, thus you are making an assumption that is obviously untrue. Add another question. 1. WHY DO YOU THINK THERE IS NO CULT WHEN THE LIST IS VERY CLEAR? 2. WHY AM I SCUM TO YOU?

I am not being misleading as I have clearly laid out my thoughts and rational for my votes. You are being strongly misdirecting and evasive. Something is different with you this game.

Hey Stardust, can you give me a serious answer to my first question now that I gave you my full claim?

It's only fair...

VC 1.6

Wraith (3) - Stardust, LMD, Dechs
Red (1) - Kaze
ham (1) - rezombad
LMD (1) - imopen
Stardust (1) - Wraith
Not Voting (2) - ham, red

9 alive, 5 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, July 12th at 5:30 PM Eastern.

@Mod, Can we know how many players are in each non-town and non/scum roles? Is it one each?

There is at least one town player and at least one anti-town player in this setup. That is the only setup information I am willing to give other than what I already listed in the OP and Post 8. As previously stated (in post 8.), the list in the OP and Post 8 is to prevent game-breaking, neither
those posts nor this post confirms or denies any specific alignment(s) being in the game.

The OP has been edited to help clarify this point for anyone that was/is confused.

Hey Stardust, can you give me a serious answer to my first question now that I gave you my full claim?

It's only fair...

Why do you want to know? If you have a good reason I may be willing to share.

You mean, aside from the fact that more information is always helpful to town?

While true, much of that information is also helpful to the mafia. Often much moreso. Do you have an argument for why this information would be more helpful to the town than the mafia?

I get it. Start a wagon on you, get you to L-2 or L-1, then ask for claim. Meh.

Can you at least address this one:

I didn't miss that. But there's no cult. Well, there's no cult unless there's no mafia. I suppose that's possible.

Please explain why this is true. Keep in mind, I don't even have one completed game under my belt.

Oh yeah, sorry. That comment was based on the assumption that there is a mafia. A nine player game is typically balanced around a 7/2 split. You've got to warp the game pretty hard to make 3 mafia work or to add other anti-town factions (for example, 2 mafia and 1 SK would be a very tough game for town). Same applies to the Cult. If there is a mafia, I think it's basically impossible for there to be a Cult leader since the game gets too hard for the town. An SK and a Cult Leader might be balanced, but it's far-fetched. Cults are dumb and I don't think Pie would have gone out of his way to add anything like that, meaning one of us would have to have submitted "10-shot unlimited use dayvig/Cult" in order for the Cult option to be chosen.

Does that make sense? The fact that ham exists (if you believe him - I do) makes this even more unlikely since we're already short a town player.

So, knowing that Ham's neutral, is it fair to just hang him anyway? I mean, sure he's acting town now, but if we get into a mislynch and lose position, you can be damn sure he'd switch sides in a heartbeat.

You're right that he'll switch sides, especially since he's been alluding to having some kind of shot of his own. You tell me. Does lynching ham help us?

I think that it's the safe lynch.

We've got 9 players. Assuming 2 mafia and Ham, that's 6:2:1. Call it 7:2 because Ham's on our side for now.

If we lynch town, then a night kill happens, we'll be down to 4:2:1 and Ham would definitely switch sides. So it's basically 4:3. One more mislynch and town loses the game right there, no night kill needed.

If we get lucky and lynch scum today, then we'll be at 5:1:1 and Ham stays on our side. Easy peasy from there, but we have to get super lucky. How often does town lynch scum on the first day? It's not easy without anything to go on.

The third option is that we lynch Ham and eliminate the wildcard. Tomorrow will be 5:2. We could conceivably mislynch one more time and still have a game going. The problem I see here is that lynching Ham doesn't give us the typical wagon to analyze, since that's more of a town motivated lynch than a scum motivated mislynch. Hell, I
don't even know how to handle a neutral party, let alone analyze the wagon on one. Shit, this is complicated.

Hmm, surprisingly good logic there. And here I was ready to crusade against you for neutral hunting.

ham, what do you think of that plan (other than the fact that you think it's terrible)? What can you offer us here?

Hmm, surprisingly good logic there. And here I was ready to crusade against you for neutral hunting.

ham, what do you think of that plan (other than the fact that you think it's terrible)? What can you offer us here?

I'm against it mostly because being dead is an automatic loss for me and I'd enjoy continuing to play the game.

That said, Dechs lays out an interesting argument for killing me and getting it over with. He is essentially advocating trading a townie of unknown power level tonight for a confirmed dead neutral. That's a highly variable option, but I can understand the comfort of cutting yourself instead of letting someone else do it to you. Everyone here submitted an interesting role to Pie so I'm sure this is a game with a fair
amount of power.

What's in it for town? The decision to keep me around is one based in marginal utility. The downside is that killing me, then scum killing one of you tonight leaves a smaller pool of potential town players on day 2. Tomorrow, with me dead, you'll have one dead teammate and a full scum team. It's essentially the same as voting NL day 1.

Leaving me alive lets you hunt scum from a smaller pool (each townie can eliminate themselves and me from their scum list), and you have a voting ally since my interests align with yours. I saw the value in making my alignment clear early on, instead of in later days.

There's also the distinct chance that scum will waste a night shot on me, or kill me anyway if I pick the wrong meat shield, settling the issue without wasting a day.

Hmm, surprisingly good logic there. And here I was ready to crusade against you for neutral hunting.

ham, what do you think of that plan (other than the fact that you think it's terrible)? What can you offer us here?

There's also the distinct chance that scum will waste a night shot on me, or kill me anyway if I pick the wrong meat shield, settling the issue without wasting a day.

Did you just tell us what your ability is (hide behind someone)?

Yes that's the survivor mechanic, seems standard according to the MS wiki.

Alright. I say we let him live and try to hang a scum. I'll be able to investigate someone tonight barring interference.

Alright. I say we let him live and try to hang a scum. I'll be able to investigate someone tonight barring interference.

It's about time the rest of you caught up

Wanna reconsider a Red wagon? C'mon. It's good wagon. Yesh.

ok so wraith is town. there is way too much town frustration in his posts towards stardust. he had a legitimate question (considering how little of a case has been made against him during the wagon), and he didn't lose track of it which, although it was a simple question, is a positive sign in my book.

that means:

Town:
Me
Red
Wraith

Neutral:
Ham

Who knows:
DK
Stardust
Rez

The Others:
Kaze
LMD

Let's get behind this LMD lynch guys (I assume stardust won't support a kaze lynch?)

Why do you say that? I'd vote Kaze if I had a good reason to do so. Lay it on me, baby!

he won't stop trying to lynch red, mostly.

i mean LMD is giving no good reads and is posting even less than me right now. i was kinda hoping to pressure him to post by voting him but since that didn't work i figured i'd use POE. i'd rather lynch kaze, honestly. either way i'm pretty sure he'll need to be lynched eventually anyways

i mean LMD is giving no good reads and is posting even less than me right now.

1) why do you need good reads from me?

2) that isn't a point in your favor you realize.

I don't see much point in lynching ham yet, I believe he is neutral and if he is, he has indicated he does not wish to be lynched, there isn't a need to lynch him yet

i mean LMD is giving no good reads and is posting even less than me right now.

1) why do you need good reads from me?

2) that isn't a point in your favor you realize.

it's not about learning your reads, it's about you not displaying the town qualities i would expect town, like, trying to work with the other people to figure out who the scum are

at the very least you are giving us something to go on in the event that you are lynched today. if you know the result of said lynch would be a mislynch, you should be trying to case someone rather than doing nothing and making your lynch more likely.

ok so wraith is town. there is way too much town frustration in his posts towards stardust. he had a legitimate question (considering how little of a case has been made against him during the wagon), and he didn't lose track of it which, although it was a simple question, is a positive sign in my book.

So you're for WraithTown? Awesome! We're making progress. Now if only we could sure up your compass as far as pretty much everyone else, your reads wouldn't be a peg above utter rubbish!

I mean, calling me scum for tunneling is one of the more hilarious accusations I've heard in a while.

Why do I "need to be lynched eventually anyways"?

Like, seriously imopen. I'm starting to wonder if you're not playing some next-level game on me. Reads so bad, they can only come from town!